Red one vs Red One MX vs Red One Mysterium X and other Q's

[Rob Mushad]

Hi all. First post. I attempted to search the forum ad nauseum for answers to my questions but came up short so here I am posting. We're in the market for three Red One cameras and some accessories. I'm coming up a bit confused in my search so I'm just going to throw all my questions at you guys.

1. Differences between Red One Models - We want the cameras to have the newer Mysterium sensors. I'm just not sure which cameras do. I know there's the original Red One and then there's the Red One MX. If a camera says Mysterium x on the side is that an MX or a different version altogether? Are the Red One and the Red One MX the only two versions of the camera or were there others?

2. Identifying different models - Assuming the words "Mysterium X" on the side of the camera identify that it is an MX, I'm running across a lot of sellers selling MX's that don't say anything on the side other than "RED". Are these sellers inaccurately listing their cameras or was there an upgrade that allowed the original Red One to be upgraded to an MX?

3. What is MX? - Is it just the newer sensor?

4. Is there any way to specifically identify which version a camera is through the serial number? - A few of the cameras I'm looking at have 4 numbers and then an "x" at the end of them. Does that x mean anything?

5. Common issues - What are they? Should I be looking for anything specific?

6. What's a fair price to pay for a moderate hour Red One MX? - I know Red just fire saled the last of their inventory but despite that I can't seem to find many for under $4500 - $5000. If I end up paying 5k for one of these is that a fair price or should I be holding out for less?

If there's something you didn't see me ask about that you think I should know please feel free to chime in. Thanks folks!

 

[Christopher Mills]

2 yes, some upgraded ones do not say MX on the body.. they do, however say it onthe lcd screen when powered up. ask seller to send you video of the startup screens, which will show you the firmware info as well as serial number, and hours of use.

3)the Mysterium X is the still supported sensor in most of the product line.
It was the upgrade from the original sensor, and is a little more light sensitive, and has slightly different colro response (to my eye)
Dragon is the New sensor for Scarlet and Epic bodies only

4) Maybe.. ask RED HQ (and I suggest you actually spend the $900 or so to have them do the ownership transfer, inspection, maintenance, and most importantly..90 day warrantee to the new owner). Be sure to call Red for instructions on this.. it is actually very purchaser friendly.

5) Let RED sort this out as far as function goes, thats what the transfer process is for. cosmetic(ish) issues I am aware of are occasional stripped threads in bolt holes, scuffs to LCD screen. It is much easier for you to get your camera brought up to spec by Red in their official transfer process (cheaper, as well)
I do not know if they offer transfer on "Executed" serial numbers that were retired in the now defunct trade in program for Epic Cameras.

6)I think you should budget closer to 12 thousand for the body and accesssories (and transfer fee). You will almost certainly need new cables for EVF and LCD, and you'll want SSD media 64GB and larger (the 48GB ones don't work in the R1). On that note, you'll want an SSD plate on the side of the camera.
The media is harder to buy used than you'd think (very high demand)
On a strict budget, you could outifit with Red Drives (I did)
The bracket/baseplate/mounting for accessories options are bewildering, and if you buy a kit that includes them, you will have a system in place that someone else already solved
I already had PL mount lenses, but if I had not, I would have wanted a Nikon mount for my camera... still thinking about it.. or perhaps another lens mount option for still lenses..

I think that $5-6 thousand only gets you a body these days.. unless a friend wants to sell you their cameras.

 

[Peter Stelzhammer]

3) M sensor = 320 ASA, MX sensor = 800 ASA as base specification. If you intend to shoot a lot of low-light stuff or stuff with uncontrolled lighting situations (run & gun, exterior) I wouldn't choose the original Mysterium Sensor anymore! The M sensor is still very nice for daylight or studio stuff with controlled lighting but is pretty limited in low-light. It still produces very nice pictures with daylight and in studio - it just gets noisy pretty soon when you don't have enough light on your target. As for color rendition; the original M sensor is a bit less contrasty, it has kind of a warmer, not as saturated and not as tack sharp look out of the box (that's my impression at least). Also keep in mind that you have a slightly better dynamic range with the MX sensor which helps you towards better grading options/results.

As of now; getting an original M sensor RED ONE makes only sense if you get a really good price or offer! But basically you get MX units pretty cheap now from people who are switching from battle tested units to DSMC. Body price ranges from 4500 Dollar to like 5500 Dollar, a good full set that is ready to shoot will still cost you about 9000 Dollar or more -> but I'd highly suggest buying a full kit as it is not so easy to source everything you need on the after-market in a short time-frame.

 

[Kendall Scott]

First of all the RED ONE M is just as good as the RED ONE MX in low light...its all about lenses. Ive attached some pictures that were shot on the RED ONE M using only the available light. Was shot using red pro primes....I have a ton more snapshots and R3Ds if you need to grade them for yourself. & Peter Stelzhammer is right about the way it looks but everything he says that is bad about the RED ONE M can be easily fixed in post production. How sharp your footage is has nothing to do with the sensor, sharpness is related to the lens. The better lens you get the more sensitive your camera will be. This means more data for you to use in post. Also the contrast and saturation can also be related to the lens. I had a RED ONE M & RED ONE MX for 2 years & I always used the best lenses like Zeiss Ultra Primes... It was hard to tell the difference between the two cameras in post. Always Remember this that if you put an expensive lens on a cheap camera it will out perform a cheap lens on an expensive camera. Also Set design and lighting is everything. I like to design & light my set because that is what determines blockbuster movie from an amateur film. the more you put into lighting and other stuff like that the better it will look on camera.

Personally I would get the RED ONE M. The reason why is because for $10K you can get a RED ONE M package, a Red Pro Prime or Zeiss CP2 Lens, Steadicam, Plus An good audio package. You can get a chinese steadicam that supports 22lbs for $750 or get a 33lb one for $900. The red pro prime or CP2 you can find for $3K or just rent, & for $1K you can get a top notch audio package. The RED ONE wether its the M or MX has great audio which is almost studio grade to me. I have some sample audio clips I can let you listen to to prove it. Ive tested $5 Mics on the camera and even with the cheap mics the audio is still great and clean and crisp. You can get a great wireless mic kit with a boompole, shotgun mic, & lavaliers for under $1K. For $10K you cant beat it. But If you have the extra cash you can get the same stuff for about $13K or less with a red one mx body.


Steadicam Video

 

[Kendall Scott]

Here are some more pics

 

[Peter Stelzhammer]

@Scott: my impression of poorer low-light performance might also have to do with the fact that we often just did not have the time to do proper black-shading on set and that we usually were 1-2 firmware releases short of the latest release or at least beta build. I don't have a direct comparison RED ONE M vs. RED ONE MX - I only have the comparison RED ONE M vs. RED EPIC X so my results might be a bit misleading. I compared with the same lenses tho and you are totally right - there are big differences in the look of various lenses and you can definitely tell a cheap stills-zoom apart from a good prime or cinema lens even from afar usually. Nonetheless I found the pictures of the RED ONE M just a tad softer then the pictures of the EPIC (which also might be just the higher resolution of the EPIC as you always gain a little sharpness by downsizing 5K to 4K vs. 4K out of camera - I didn't put a closer look on the newer 4.5K option on the RED ONE tho, maybe I should do so).

Since you had the RED ONE M & MX I'm pretty sure you have a better "direct comparison" that I could deliver, I was basically comparing RED ONE M to EPIC-X -> sorry for not stating so clearly in first place.

And Yes -> the Audio part on the ONE is so much better then the small jacks on the DSMC system! When shooting events we usually set up the RED ONE at the FOH to get a direct mix input and to have a good wider shot to intercut if needed. The RED HDD's give us long running times and it's a rock solid camera that never fails on us!

 

[ericyoung]

1) & 3) Two versions, sensor wise at least. Original Red One (M) with the original Mysterium sensor, and the upgraded Red One MX with the newer Mysterium-X sensor.

2) If the owner upgraded their MX camera side module from the original Compact Flash unit to the new SSD unit, after their sensor upgrade, any Mysterium X engraving would be lost. The "X" startup screen is the definitive identifier.

4) No.

5) Noisy fan. Dead pixels. Unreliable Red Drive. Intermittent/Dodgy cables. Unresponsive joystick.

6) $4.5K to $5K is a fair price, considering the one-off firesale price.

 

[Rob Mushad]

Thanks so much for the responses guys. So then I'm a bit more confused with respect to what models are available. Originally I assumed there was a Red One (original) and Red One MX (Mysterium-X). Now I hear a few of you saying that there's a Red One Mysterium also (no X).

Are there any clear identifiers for these cameras? A camera that says "Mysterium X" on the side would be a Red One MX correct? What about the standard Red One Mysterium? How does one identify this? Keep in mind most of these deals I'm looking at are online so I'm trying to identify through pictures.

If my post demonstrates that I'm not even close than it would be much appreciated if you guys can tell me what versions of the Red One were made any whether or not there are any easy identifiers for determining what's what.

 

[Rob Mushad]

1) & 3) Two versions, sensor wise at least. Original Red One (M) with the original Mysterium sensor, and the upgraded Red One MX with the newer Mysterium-X sensor.

2) If the owner upgraded their MX camera side module from the original Compact Flash unit to the new SSD unit, after their sensor upgrade, any Mysterium X engraving would be lost. The "X" startup screen is the definitive identifier.

4) No.

5) Noisy fan. Dead pixels. Unreliable Red Drive. Intermittent/Dodgy cables. Unresponsive joystick.

6) $4.5K to $5K is a fair price, considering the one-off firesale price.

Perfect... That's what I was needing to know with the sensors.

As far as the joystick goes, I assume that's on the back of the camera and used to interact with the internal display? Does it go out directionally or what fails on it? So far nothing I've looked at includes the drive so I guess I don't have to worry there and I can check for dead pixels.

 

[ericyoung]

See my post just before you posted Rob. In theory, a secondhand Red One (non-MX, also known as M) owner could have legitimately bought a secondhand replacement Compact Flash module from a camera that had the Mysterium-X (MX) sensor upgrade, so could have a Red One (non-MX) camera with the Mysterium-X engraving on the side. As long as that was made clear in the sales advert, then no problem.

The ONLY definitive identifier is the start up screen with a big red X in a circle on the display LCD/EVF screen - get the seller to send you a picture of that if you are unsure.

 

[David Mullen ASC]

The original Red One had the Mysterium sensor, the next generation sensor is the Mysterium-X -- so there are only two types of Red One bodies, one with the original "M" (for Mysterium) sensor and one with the later "MX" (for Mysterium-X) sensor.

Personally I think the Mysterium-X was a significant-enough improvement to prefer going that way, plus all the latest builds would support that version. There was improvement in noise in the shadows, enough for Red to recommend an 800 ASA rating, which they didn't with the original Red One, and better noise in the shadows means better usable dynamic range. The original Red One could produce very clean images but I feel that the MX images have a bit more naturalness to the contrast. But you can shoot great images with either camera.

 

[ericyoung]

The joystick knob grub screw can loosen, and the knob can slip too far down the joystick shaft, and then the knob subtly fouls on the camera body and prevents full operation. It's easily fixed with the correct sized hex key and a bit of Loctite threadlock compound (the weaker red coloured threadlocker fluid).

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?91689-Problem-with-R1-joystick

 

[Rob Mushad]

Awesome, you guys are spectacular. There's fairly limited info on these cameras out there so this is a huge help.

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

Noise on MX is more pleasing - and there is less of it. If you shoot at very high ASA on MX the noise looks way less digital, almost like film.

 

[Rudi Herbert]

I'm still surprised people are "used" to seeing the R1 MX sell for $4,500, that is a ridiculous price. I know a few bodies have sold for that, but very few, and more importantly, that price does not reflect market realities. Just because Jim sold a lot of BT cameras for $4K does not mean it is the real cost of the camera. And with the advent of Dragon, I dare say the cost of an R1 body will increase slightly, evening out at just under $6K. You watch. Scarlet will sell for around $8.5-9K, and Epic MX for around $13.5-15K. And that will be that. No other company like Arri or Sony is going to release anything comparable to those cameras at those prices, and those who keep thinking that the Black Magic 4K or the GoPro 4K, or whatever cheap alternative comes from whomever, are better choices than the R1, they are sadly mistaken. The laws of decreasing prices always clash with the realities of what a piece of gear can actually do and what that is worth. And while I of course have nothing against cheap prices, a little reality check here and there is a good thing.

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

I'm still surprised people are "used" to seeing the R1 MX sell for $4,500, that is a ridiculous price. I know a few bodies have sold for that, but very few, and more importantly, that price does not reflect market realities. Just because Jim sold a lot of BT cameras for $4K does not mean it is the real cost of the camera. And with the advent of Dragon, I dare say the cost of an R1 body will increase slightly, evening out at just under $6K. You watch. Scarlet will sell for around $8.5-9K, and Epic MX for around $13.5-15K. And that will be that. No other company like Arri or Sony is going to release anything comparable to those cameras at those prices, and those who keep thinking that the Black Magic 4K or the GoPro 4K, or whatever cheap alternative comes from whomever, are better choices than the R1, they are sadly mistaken. The laws of decreasing prices always clash with the realities of what a piece of gear can actually do and what that is worth. And while I of course have nothing against cheap prices, a little reality check here and there is a good thing.

I agree, and well-put.

We own an MX - and we would never sell it for $4500 simply because it is worth much more than that to us as a B-Cam, and in some circumstances as an A-Cam. It earns that much every 6-7months, and I see no end to that.

There are only so many RedMxs out there, only so many people willing to sell. That said the BT thing I wish they had never done. It cheapened the brand.

 

[Aaron Jones Sr.]

I have a question pertaining to the MX sensor for you gurus here. I realize that this thread has not been active in over 4 years but I'm hoping to get some feedback or information to point me in the right direction.


I recently acquired a Red One MX and when it arrived it did not have the Original PL mount on it. It came with a Canon EF mount that obviously was not using the Camera Electronic contacts from the original PL Mount. It also came with a Rokinon 24mm T1.5. Using this setup I'm getting noise in my footage where there is no daylight environment. I'm wondering if it is because the original PL mount and the electronics are bypassed causing the Red One not work in sync with the lens. According to Post 4 in this thread it is because I'm not using good glass. I'm getting the original PL mount back on the Red One MX and looking to get better glass. I'm wondering if it is necessary to get something like Red Pro lens or could I grab something like Xeen Cine Lens that is PL mount and get rid of a significant amount of noise? Again this question is based off the information provided in Post #4 of this thread.

I'm wondering if I would need a lens that utilizes the Electronic contacts of the PL mount so the camera can work with it in sync...

 

[Ryan Purcell]

A different lens mount will not change the amount of noise you have in the image. For less noise you need to add more light to the scene. Faster lenses can help you out there but the mount itself will not.

 

[Aaron Jones Sr.]

A different lens mount will not change the amount of noise you have in the image. For less noise you need to add more light to the scene. Faster lenses can help you out there but the mount itself will not.

So are you in agreement with post #4? If I'm already using T1.5 glass then according what you are saying there is not much I can do, right? In post #4 he was talking about using better glass. According to that post more quality glass helps eliminate noise. I'm new to Red One MX and I'm just trying to get an understanding as to how to shoot more efficiently. In his screen grabs he was able to show in low light without noticeable noise. I have seen a youtube video where they were conduction a low light test with the Red One MX and there was no noticeable noise there as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UN2HAq4rXhM

 

[Ryan Purcell]

Good glass itself does not eliminate noise. The best way to avoid noise in a low light scenario is to add light to the scene and then to crush the blacks down to taste. Even a dark scene can take quite a bit of light. Underexposure is the real killer.

As to the Red One vs the MX question. I have owned both and found the MX to be a little noisier than the Red one footage at its native iso (800 vs 320) but it is a little nicer overall in terms of color and highlight retention. I would probably pick up the MX over the M unless the deal on the M is too good to pass up. Mx cameras are also probably easier to find since the majority of the cameras were upgraded. I would be sure the the cameras you buy have the upgraded media slots and could take SSD cards. That would be extremely important to me.