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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

RED ONE to have slow shutter/intervalometer capability?

I agree JohnF.
Post solutions may be available and even more flexible in some situations, but in-camera frame accumulation yields a noiseless image with immediate playback in the field allowing for for adjustments and refinement.
It saves HD space and offers confidence that your shot "in the dark" actually worked and you don't have to wait for post to find out if you need a reshoot.
 
Slow Shutter

Slow Shutter

Click to see Sony PDW-F350 demo video

Unless I am missing something, all the effects demonstrated in this XDCAM demo video could be accomplished by Timelapse mode.

With regard to the discussion about Slow Shutter : Note when a clip has 16 frame accumulation, the motion become very jumpy.

i.e If this is true, even though you are recording 24 fps to the disk, 16 out of every 24 images recorded are the same, this is not the same as a rolling accumulation window - such as frame 1 is A+B+C, frame 2 is B+C+D etc as speculated.

And if it is true, the same effect can be provided by a Timelapse mode by keeping the shutter open for 16/24 sec, and recording the result 16 times to the disk.
 
I may be jumping a bit late in this discussion...
I'd love to have

1st frame recorded = Frames A + B+ C + D + E
2nd frame recorded = Frames B+ C + D + E +F
3rd frame recorded = Frames C + D + E +F +G
but would it be possible to take it a step further and have on-the-fly variable frame accumulation?
ie:
1st frame recorded = Frames A + B+ C + D + E
2nd frame recorded = Frames C + D + E +F
3rd frame recorded = Frames E +F +G
4th frame recorded = Frames F + G + H
5th frame recorded = Frames G + H + I + J
6th frame recorded = Frames H + I + J + K + L
like have a couple of buttons assigned to increase or decrease the frame accumulation.
 
Frame Accumulation and Averaging

Frame Accumulation and Averaging

In post yes, but in camera that's not likely to happen on any camera because of the amount of memory required to achieve that.
 
Easier to do it in post with time and full control anyhow, and no difference on the final output, as long as you can shoot 360 degree shutter angle.....
 
Would be nice for live coverage of extreme sports or music shows.
In post I sure can do it :)
 
Slow Shutter etc

Slow Shutter etc

For anyone who is using this - On the XDCAM what is the delay between what you see in the viewfinder and what's happening in front of the camera - the number of frame accumulated presumably?
 
Guys, I think it's unfortunate that this discussion has been muddied with "frame accumulation". I view "frame accumulation" as a workaround for cameras that don't have proper long exposures. What you get is a series of traditional multiple-exposure still images, is it not? Each frame has a bunch of separate outlines of anything that's moving, instead of the smooth blur that a long exposure would have. Stuart, I think that's the distinction you were asking about.

Not to slam anyone's feature request, but I think frame-accumulation-type effects are clearly best relegated to post. I'd hate to see camera-development time spent on this instead of on the original request: long exposures.

Time-lapse functionality should have these parameters:

1. Exposure duration (shutter speed): up to 10 seconds or more.
2. Time between exposures: fractions of seconds, seconds, minutes, hours?

(the following should be available in combination, whichever occurs first)

3. Total number of frames to record
4. Total duration of time-lapse shooting

And, a nice-to-have feature:

5. Delay until start: After we press the Record button, how long to wait before shooting begins. Good for unattended recording. This might be a good feature for all shooting modes, not just time-lapse.

And although time-lapse can be done with still cameras, there's a major reason for using a motion-picture camera: blending with other full-motion elements that require exactly the same optical characteristics (field of view, DOF, distortion, whatever).

And finally: This kind of functionality would benefit from variable compression rates. When you're only processing a frame per second or less, why limit the quality to what the camera can do at 24, 30, or 60 FPS? I think user-selectable compression levels would provide an important way for us to maximize the quality of our Red images in all shooting modes. At any given frame rate and size, users should be able to max out the throughput of the Red's processor and storage medium to achieve the best quality.
 
Stokestack said:
I view "frame accumulation" as a workaround for cameras that don't have proper long exposures.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the clarity. I'm guessing that most of us want to emulate the good features of film recording, not video workarounds. Every film camera intervalometer that I've used allows exposures well into the minutes. Having that capability is critical if you want to do night timelapes such as moving stars, northern lights, moonlit landscapes, or daytime long exposure FX with a heavily NDed lens (water and traffic look very cool this way). In film there is no inherent limitation to shutter speed, only the limitation of the intervelometer - please don't limit it to "about 10 seconds" unless there is a technical reason to do so. I doubt we need hours (your timelapse would never get done!) but minutes would be a very good thing.

The only video feature I'm dying to see is a prerecord buffer - it's saved my ass many times!
 
Stokestack said:
Guys, I think it's unfortunate that this discussion has been muddied with "frame accumulation". I view "frame accumulation" as a workaround for cameras that don't have proper long exposures. What you get is a series of traditional multiple-exposure still images, is it not? Each frame has a bunch of separate outlines of anything that's moving, instead of the smooth blur that a long exposure would have. Stuart, I think that's the distinction you were asking about.
Click to expand...

Not really.

Frame accumulation and traditional timelapse are just 2 variations on a theme.

Time lapse might be a 1 second exposure every 2 seconds say.
Where frame accumulation could be a 1 second exposure at spacings of anything from 24fps to 1 shot every 2 seconds as per the timelapse.

If you shoot with a 360 degree shutter, the accumulated 1 second exposure looks exactly like an exposure with the shutter held open for the full 1 second. The only difference is that you can do a "rolling accumulation" (is there a real name for that?) and mix thing up a lot more.

I see accumulation at this stage as being a post technique to get full control over a timelapse sequence, as it easily allows time ramping and frame blend/add variations as you want.

Some accumulation options may end up onboard the camera, but at the moment that seems to be pushing the buffer and processing requirements too far.
No big deal, just shoot a planned timelapse at a fixed rate, or shoot 24fps with a 360 degree shutter (put up with all the extra data) and set your timelapse options in post.
 
ColinSmith said:
No big deal, just shoot a planned timelapse at a fixed rate, or shoot 24fps with a 360 degree shutter (put up with all the extra data) and set your timelapse options in post.
Click to expand...

Colin,

I understand what you're saying and I've had to work that way before but I shoot a lot of T-lapse work and whilst that way has benefits it also means a huge build up/back-log of data/work where just shooting it in slow-shutter and/or timelapse in the first place means no back-log and fast turn-around. (which is a big deal when you're busy)
ie the weather here in the UK has been quite dramatic over the past few days and I managed to shoot some of the more interesting events that could have been sellable shots. The problem is that the camera I had to hand had no T-lapse function meaning the shot is sitting there in dataland waiting to be processed, since I am v. busy with other work at the moment, instead of being automatically ready to send off and sell...

JohnF
 
Sure, know about capturing a ton of video and having to deal with it as well, bad enough on HDV...

But I think with the current Red timelapse options we are not badly catered for.

Shoot regular timelapse, setup on the camera and ready to use when you capture. Or. If you need the freedom in post, you shoot it as normal 24fps and get that freedom, at the expense of the post work.

Now if it was just a software upgrade to give more of the frame accumulation options in camera then cool, add them in and we have a 3rd choice. But at the moment it appears to me that the hardware requirements rule that out. If it becomes an option sometimes later... great :-)
 
Ive just read this entire thread, and it seems there is still no real answer to the long exposure timelapse question.( although a big thanks to stokestack, clarity is wonderful!)

Does red one have an option to shoot timelapses?

If yes, can we open the shutter on single frames for various lenghts of time? And if so, why contain it to 10 seconds?
The exponential nature of long exposures begs for way longer exposure times.and why not?!

thanks
simon
www.skintfilms.co.uk
 
This question has been floating around the board for half a year or more: What is the longest exposure possible while doing timelapse? You need at least 30 seconds to 1 minute seconds for star/night stuff.
 
The only answer closest to being definite goes something like this.

RED can shoot down to 1fps if one uses a 360º shutter this will give a max exposure of 1sec.

Combined with a intervalometer function this would yield the ability to shoot time-lapse with a max exposure of 1sec/frame.

As I've mentioned before I would much prefer longer exposures, 10secs being the bottom end of my requirements. Ideally I would prefer 30 to 60 seconds. (and I could do some really trippy stuff if I had a "bulb" setting!)

Though remember electronic imagers noise signal (esp thermal noise) can build up rather quickly (+30sec range). Thermal noise can show up as a broad pattern/coloured shape on the image rather than a diffuse white noise and will show up the more one pushes the ISO rating.

JohnF
 
Hi, haven't read all of the comments yet about long exposure and timelapse, I'm a bit busy for now: But I plan for my next ski commercial this winter, to have a kind of ramped timelapse with Curts motion head. It will start in the night with stars (long exposure) and will end up in the first light of the morning with slow motion with a carver jumping through the picture. Please let me make this technical possible Jim, give us long exposure...
 
Timelapse Revisited

Timelapse Revisited

So I searched and didn't come up with anything on this since August so here goes.... I've shot 35mm Timelapse (Arri IIC, III, 435, SR3...etc) for many more years than I care to admit and I would really like to know how to do long exposures with the Red One. Yes, I went through the 3 pages of discussion on this issue when I did the search but I still don't see how to do, for example, a timelapse with 1 frame every 10 seconds with an 8 second exposure (just a random example). Can it be done now (I'm on Build 16)? Build 17? 18? Ever?
 
1 second is currently the longest exposure the RED One is capable of.
 
I assume you achieve that with 360 shutter angle. Does anyone know if future builds will address the issue of longer exposure times or is the bottom line for the Red One sensor that it cannot exceed a 1 sec exposure time?
 
I've found the Red to have too much noise (so far) for long exposures. I bring a DSLR on shoots for that purpose, shoot long exposures with motion control in timelapse mode, then process the frames through After Effects to turn the RAW images into a sequence. The footage is cutting very well with the Red footage.
 
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