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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

RED ONE to have slow shutter/intervalometer capability?

To keep the 180 degree shutter look in timelapse you're trying for the exposure time to be 50% of the time between frames, so you might easy be looking for 1,2,3,4 second exposure times during longer day time shoots, so some use for low ISO there, but yes, not an essential.

Has anybody used the Sony frame accumulation themselves? Is it anything more than a simple frame blend in post would be? I have not tried an "add blend in post, which is what the XDCAMs seem to be doing, as I had assumed it would be too noisy, but maybe......
 
If someone mentions shooting slow shutter t-lapse again with a DSLR I'll go mental!

I want slow shutter capability in camera. It's not difficult.

DSLR's have a mechanical gate that was not designed with the frame numbers that filming requires in mind. I shot a T-lapse recently if I had done it on a DSLR then, for this specific shot, I would have eaten up 10% of the cameras working life on ONE SHOT. Now at over well over £1000 per camera that means the shot would have cost me well over £100.

Shooting with DSLRs does do the job agreed but it is expensive and eats ones profit margin by quite a considerable degree. Not to mention that the MTBF is a "mean" average and that the DSLR camera can fail well before that time esp with the mechanical workload that shooting t-lapse can generate.

But back to slow shutter on RED. I want slow shutter for creative purposes
I don't care about fps frame rates as this is t-lapse or creative work where the playback frame rate is often sorted out in post(or one might depend on the combination of slow shutter and standard playback(fps)rates to aquire the intended effect). I want to aquire slow shutter shots for the look of them. Plus unlike DSLRs or film RED does not have a mechanical gate which will fail so I would be able to shoot far more slow shutter and t-lapse without the worry of camera failure.

So please please RED team just give us the function for a slow shutter speed.
You won't believe the type of shots this camera will be able to get esp if combined with internal t-lapse controller.

BTW if you are fitting an internal intervalometer make it versatile.
Please include shutter speed, length of shot frames and/or seconds, if possible camera power down and power up and an aperture priority mode where the shutter speed will vary depending on the light level (meaning the camera is able to be left running on it's own with very little in the way of supervision)

The other point about slow(er) shutter speeds is that one can capture very
nice landscape shots during twilight without resorting to high noise/grain ISO ratings changing the look and/or feel of ones project.

JohnF
 
Timelapse etc

Timelapse etc

We have a Timelapse function. So long as you have a 360 degree shutter a Frame Accumulation (Slow Shutter) effect can be done in post.
 
... and the longest possible exposure the RED can produce?

Both David M. and I have floated that 1 sec is feasible if the slowest frame rate is 1fps and you use 360 degree shutter...
 
Stuart English said:
We have a Timelapse function. So long as you have a 360 degree shutter a Frame Accumulation (Slow Shutter) effect can be done in post.
Click to expand...

Sigh... that's the first bit of bad news about RED what's more that's just shoving more unneeded work onto post, which is more expensive than just shooting slow shutter in the first place.

I'd like to know why slow-shutter won't be an option? As frame accumulation in post is not really the same as capturing the photon's per frame in-situ. There are benefits to post based frm-accumulation but it is time consuming compared with slow shutter speed shooting (please note I've been using both techniques for many years now)

What's more I won't be able to hand clients a piece of footage at the end of the shoot I'll have to say "Hold on shots x,y and z as I'm going to have to spend hours of time processing the images - which I'll have to charge for." The client will then say something along the lines of "I told you we should have bought stock footage" or "Don't bother we'll drop the shots then".

I'll have to point out that this function is very significant for both myself and my client base and might well determine whether or not I'll go with RED.
I'm not asking for a 20minute exposure I'm looking for upto 10sec per frame ideally but I'd settle for 1sec per frame. My point is that I'll have to have another camera to shoot this kind of material, which will compromise the overall look and would mean a doubling up of lenses, transport costs, possibly crew, insurance etc...

So what will be the slowest exposure RED will be able to shoot then?

Jim Arthurs said:
... and the longest possible exposure the RED can produce?

Both David M. and I have floated that 1 sec is feasible if the slowest frame rate is 1fps and you use 360 degree shutter...
Click to expand...

I hope that is true!

I also might ask is a hardware issue about RED or is this a firmware issue that could be an updatable feature in the future?

Sorry if this post seems a little negative or over forceful but this feature not being available throws a real big spanner in the works regarding a project I'm preparing!

JohnF
 
Slow Shutter

Slow Shutter

My point is that if you have a camera, designed to work in a broadcast environment, or a camcorder that is either tape based or based on MPEG encoding, you HAVE to have a framestore based signal accumulation feature - i.e "slow shutter".

But if you do not have those restructions then there can be other ways to do the same effect.

So what is the effect that you want to do?
 
I agree John.

Unless there is a technical reason why RED can't perform this function it might be good strategy to include it since it is a touted feature in the new XDCAM-HD line and gives them a significant marketing advantage.

Its seems as though the RED strategy is to push the bounderies of what's possible technically and economically. As creative imagers, we are also looking for new ways to express ourselves with the power of new digital tools that we can employ in the field, not just achieve in post.

In the old days, most of the great effects were done in camera allowing the DPs more creative freedom. This is why Coppola and Jackson explored this in "Dracula" and the "Lord of the Rings".

We don't see these techniques as gimmicks, but creative tools to further express our ideas.

The RED team has done some amazing things, maybe the best of which is creating this board and giving us a voice that is listened too.

We all want this project to succeed so I hope you take my suggestions in the spirit for which they are given.

aloha,

Keith
 
Slow Shutter

Slow Shutter

Again, let us know what effect it is that you are trying to create and we can comment further on this.
 
sorry. i'm a little confused too. can we set the camera to take 1 frame every 5 seconds with a 180 degree shutter so the exposure time is 2.5 seconds or is this not possible.
 
I believe what is needed, though I am no expert, is the ability for time lapse, which you say you already have - and the ability to vary the shutter at the same time.

What this effective creates is a way to shoot at night or low light situations, albeit at slow frame rates, but with a frame or light accumulation per frame that amplifies the existing light without amplifying the noise floor.

There are many creative effect possible with this technology, some of which have been mentioned in this thread.

When you are shooting scenes with very little motion in them you get a time-exposure effect of being able to see in very dim light, that could not be recorded any other way.

The beauty is the amplification of the light without the noise.

When there is motion in the scene, you get ghostly trails and an amplification of light depending the two variables of shutter and time-lapse rate.

There are many creative uses, ie. night for night establishing shots, dream sequences or as in the Ititerod film, being able to shoot the dogteams arriving at checkpoint at night with no lights.

I hope this helps. Thanks for your genius Stuart and all your hard work.

aloha,

Keith
 
Stuart English said:
Again, let us know what effect it is that you are trying to create and we can comment further on this.
Click to expand...

I think the question is simply that if you take a picture once every 10 seconds, for example, could you have the shutter open for 10 seconds for each frame? Or is 1 second the longest exposure time per frame since 1 fps is the slowest non-time-lapse frame rate selectable?
 
It would really be a great thing if the shutter could stay open as David describes. If Red one does not have this function could it be added later as a soft/firmware upgrade ?
Aloha
-A
 
Keith Nealy said:
There are many creative uses, i.e., night for night establishing shots, dream sequences . . .
Click to expand...
Yes, I think the use of long-exposure and time-lapse shots as establishing shots, and especially as transition shots, are often VERY effective uses of these "trick" shots. The 1985 Kurt Russell feature about a serial killer, "The Mean Season," uses a number of time lapse shots of stormy skies over Miami as transition shots. The shots create an eerie, dramatic mood that fits the story well. This would also probably be my primary usage of a long-exposure and time-lapse photography.
 
Poi Boy said:
It would really be a great thing if the shutter could stay open as David describes. If Red one does not have this function could it be added later as a soft/firmware upgrade ?
Aloha
-A
Click to expand...

As long as everyone is OK with an upgrade as time goes on... we are good. We can't satisfy every request from day one. But we can, and will, upgrade many things as we go forward.

Jim
 
Jannard said:
As long as everyone is OK with an upgrade as time goes on... we are good. We can't satisfy every request from day one. But we can, and will, upgrade many things as we go forward.

Jim
Click to expand...
"Okay?" You mean, are we okay with you guys making our cameras even cooler as time goes on??? I know I would be totally "okay" with that! I understand that at some point very soon, you guys have to "lock" the design, and start making production models. And that listening to our design suggestions, at this late date, may be getting a bit tiresome for all of you. My apologies. Lemme make it clear that we really, really appreciate the open communication channels here with you all, and of course, really appreciate all the hard work you guys are putting into the project thus far. Just do what you guys gotta do. Thank you.
 
Ralph Oshiro said:
...you guys have to "lock" the design, and start making production models.
Click to expand...

To be clear... we will NEVER "lock" the design down. The trick is to make sure that the early adopters, or any of our customers, don't suffer any negative consequences from our continued improvements.

Jim
 
I have been asking about using video cameras for years for the Auroras. Many people have stated why not use a 35mm film SLR or now a DSLR. I have 20 + years of shooting auroras with a 35mm SLR. The problem is when the auroras are very active you loose the motion with a super long exposure. For years I have used the VX2100 and DSR500 for aurora video. The 1/4 second with the VX2100 does fine. The stars show up very well. The aurora color has to be worked on in post as well as the noise. Not the best, but it works. I can not help but to believe the RED system with a longer shutter speed would work well. All I need is from 1 to 4 seconds of open shutter and my job would be done.

Jim,

Why dont you fly down to Alaska this winter and we can test your camera on the auroras. (like you really have time)LOL.

Perhaps some day I will test it and would be happy to post the results.

http://www.gregsyverson.com
 
Timelapse / Slow Shutter

Timelapse / Slow Shutter

"if you take a picture once every 10 seconds, for example, could you have the shutter open for 10 seconds for each frame?"

Keeping the shutter open for up to 10 seconds in a step print (step record) timelapse function is a great goal. The RED-ONE control system does allow exposures longer than a single frame.

With regard to the quoted Slow Shutter mode on an XDCAM HD the literature suggest that the maximum number of frames that can be accumulated is 64. At 1080i that would be a little over 1 second then, but if it is an accumulation of 64 sequential frames that may not necessarily create the same look as a 1 second continuous exposure.
 
Jim, the concept that the design is never locked down is very exciting and portends a great future for all of us. Thank you for being so courageous and thank you for entertaining our ideas.

I think because of the recent delay "challenges", the atmosphere on the boards seems to be "well, hell, while we're on hold, let's play around with some new ideas". And you fed our appetite with those new pics which fueled the fire. If it's getting a little out of hand just let us know. We can be like little kids always wanting more, but I think we all know a good thing when we see it and know when not to look a "gift horse in the mouth."

and Stuart:

I think we're all getting on the same page with this frame accumulation shutter concept but what it will probably need is your knowledge of what the capabilities of the system are now and in the future and some creative testing. I have a feeling that you can break some new ground here and give Sony a run for there money and give us all some new innovative tools that will herald RED not only as a technical achievement but one that put more creative tools in the hands of more people.

And BTW, as Ralph and Jim mentioned, if this has to come later in an update that is fine and will be a very cool thing.

Thank you for playing.

aloha,

Keith
 
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