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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

RED One slammed in Feb issue of AC?

In my eyes, it doesn't matter so much how he got the figures wrong, but more that he did so with the basic premise that bigger is always better, and is passing that along to his readers.
An MPEG-2 compressed file is larger than the same thing compressed with H.264, so the MPEG-2 must be better, right?
 
That is true - you must look at codec efficiency. Lossless codecs on reasonable images can get somewhere between 2:1 and 2.5:1. So if a 2k downsampled from a RED 4k image is from a very good codec that is only 3 times more compression than the uncompressed Phantom 2k, and will offer higher resolution (as it's downsampled), I don't see the problem at all...

Graeme
 
The AC article was written by someone who is not associated with the ASC. It was their opinion, not AC nor the ASC, of their personal experience using a Red Camera. What appeared to be an honest assessment was really inexperience. Those who know, and are open, will see the article's naivety. Mistakes mentioned were easily averted. It was dated. Many of us in the ASC think the Red Camera has changed the face of cinematography for the better. I like to think of things as half full rather than half empty. See through it.

Best,
Francis Kenny, ASC
Director of Photography
Chairman ASC Membership Committee
 
Graeme,

Does Red wants it both ways a little bit? Take for instance the claim:

"PIXEL SHIFTING AND UP-REZZING
NOT SPOKEN HERE"

It would be impossible for Red to pixel shift (b/c it's a single sensor camera). It would be like a Prius ad saying "No diesel cold start problems." Or actually worse, b/c there is nothing wrong w/ pixel shifting. It does legitimately add resolution to three chip designs.

And Red's interpolation of color values to arrive at 4:4:4 4K or 3.2K sounds very close to up-rezzing.

And:

"Typical high-end HD camcorders have 2.1M pixel sensors and record with 3:1:1 color sub-sampled video at up to 30fps."

This doesn't apply to the cameras you've mentioned in this thread unless they are recording to an HD-CAM (not SR) deck.

It sounds like Red was thinking of the HVX and F900 when it wrote those blurbs. So there has been a lot of camera improvements since those two models came out that Red is not comparing itself to.

I realize that "AC" articles should be held to a higher standard than the marketing copy on Red's website, but some of the comparisons being made by Red are to camera models that are old and technologies that are misrepresented too.

All that said, Red is an amazing company, and I don't mean to brow beat. But you guys have checked a lot of the industry's players into the boards. It doesn't engender a lot of sympathy. I imagine "AC" doesn't have an axe to grind, but I'm sure they thought you guys could take it. (Which obviously you can.)

So why an article about Red and not the other guys? Red has made a bigger splash in the industry, which is why there was a hands-on article about using it. How many people have actually shot w/ a Dalsa?
 
Peter, a new website update is in the works.

Graeme
 
redsail said:
The AC article was written by someone who is not associated with the ASC. It was their opinion, not AC nor the ASC, of their personal experience using a Red Camera. What appeared to be an honest assessment was really inexperience. Those who know, and are open, will see the article's naivety. Mistakes mentioned were easily averted. It was dated. Many of us in the ASC think the Red Camera has changed the face of cinematography for the better. I like to think of things as half full rather than half empty. See through it.

Best,
Francis Kenny, ASC
Director of Photography
Chairman ASC Membership Committee
Click to expand...

Are you going to give Red a fair opportunity to express a rebuttal?
 
Bruce Allen said:
Okay, if your DIT/AC dude could pull focus...

...and didn't know that the camera won't tell you it dropped frames if you're zoomed in...
Click to expand...

Hey Bruce,

This last one's news to me - do you just mean that when the image is zoomed in you simply can't see the dropped frame counter on the screen/EVF (as well as all the other info like histogram etc)? Correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I know you can no longer record while the image is zoomed in (I remember finding the zoom-in-while-you're-recording feature quite handy for checking sharps mid-shot & was a bit miffed when that feature got dropped), so logically it would be hard not to notice the dropped frame counter? Or do you mean there's some kind of bug that disables or messes with the dropped frame counter whenever you hit the zoom button?
 
Well holy fuck, THat was the entire article in like 1/10th the word count. Don't let my editors see that! I like going on long verbose rants just to benefit from the online impaling I can then receive in user forums.

Thanks Gavin for getting the point.

:-)


Gavin Greenwalt said:
Just finished reading it. I guess I don't see the hubbub.

- The camera can overheat. If you're shooting in death valley bring cold packs. *Ding!*
- Bayer patterns can't deliver 1:1 resolution. Always shoot 4k if possible for supesampling *Ding!*
- The Red Drive can lose frames due to vibration or loud noises. Shoot Solid State or CF in such situations. CF Cards offer less space but the RAM is significantly more expensive. *Ding!*
- There are battery issues. They've been fixed but there are still old cameras in circulation be careful. *Ding!*
- The camera is daylight balanced. Shoot tungsten lighting, especially with largely warm colored sets, without accounting for the lost dynamic range or sensitivity and you'll get noisy underexposed images. *Ding!*
- Mysterium-X and Epic promise to help solve this problem. *Ding!*
- When you shoot highspeed you're using a 16mm portion of the sensor. Image quality will suffer and if you need to shoot wide you'll want s16 lenses on hand. *Ding!*
- Mysterium is a rolling shutter. Photo strobes can case split frames. Fast motion can cause skewed geometry. *Ding!*
- Startup takes 90 seconds. If that's a problem. Consider running off of larger batteries or a mainline to avoid restarts. *Ding!*
- Redcode is compressed. You can lose some subtleties of tone as a result. *Ding!*
- Hire knowledgeable and competant people to handle your r3d files. These are your negatives. *DING! DING! DING!*
- "Digital cinematography is evolving daily, and as the specifics of the tools we use change, the need for cinematographers to embrace that change and maintain our role as the author of the image is critical." *Ding!*
- "Just as Film has evolved and matured over the last century, so, too, will digital capture and that is something I'm very excited to witness and embrace." *Ding!*

I would say that's a pretty good summary of what someone selecting RED should know before shooting.
Click to expand...
 
redsail said:
The AC article was written by someone who is not associated with the ASC. It was their opinion, not AC nor the ASC, of their personal experience using a Red Camera. What appeared to be an honest assessment was really inexperience. Those who know, and are open, will see the article's naivety. Mistakes mentioned were easily averted. It was dated. Many of us in the ASC think the Red Camera has changed the face of cinematography for the better. I like to think of things as half full rather than half empty. See through it.

Best,
Francis Kenny, ASC
Director of Photography
Chairman ASC Membership Committee
Click to expand...

Francis, I kindly disagree. I intentionally took the position of writing the article for someone who has never used the system. I've been shooting with the camera for well over 2 years. The issues I have encountered and worked through are listed for the benefit for others to not have to do the same. Perhaps you have gone through the same process yourself. AC mag merely wanted to pass that experience -- not "inexperience" -- on.

I began shooting with the camera when most of those "mistakes" were unknown and being discovered as we went. So it's dismissive, and somewhat disrespectful, to call me naive.

The only "mistake" that I have yet been able to avoid is due to the camera's rolling shutter. And I suspect that it will be solved with the Mysterium-X chip.

As for my association with the ASC, though not a member nor an associate member, I have been writing for the magazine for over 15 years and have been the Technical Editor of it since 1998. In the past I have also assisted the ASC, its staff and its members at many of the monthly dinner meetings and provided the minutes to the membership committee prior to you being the Chairman. I've worked at several different capacities for the Annual ASC Awards; from contributing writing to many years of the beautiful Awards program books, working as a photographer at the event, to doing whatever Martha or Patty needed getting done... but again I am NOT a member nor associate member of the ASC. I am. however, a working cinematographer on top of all of these other things.
 
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Christopher Probst said:
Francis, I kindly disagree. I intentionally took the position of writing the article for someone who has never used the system.
Click to expand...

I can´t read the article before my printed version arrives but sounds like It had had more sense published two years ago. ¿How many firsttimers film a commercial or a feature?. ¿How many profesional firsttimers do not learn about a system before shooting? I mean with any cam.

best,
Vico.
 
Christopher, welcome and thank you.

Christopher, welcome and thank you.

Christopher,

As a red user (And the guy who made a DVD on RED for people just starting out) I want to THANK you for taking the time to write about the camera.

While some of your points may have not been dead on, you said the one thing that mattered.. The one thing that anyone with half a brain (Or less I think) would get as the ultimate expression of faith in the RED system.

"I have used RED on over 50 music videos and commercials"..

I'm very sorry if you've been treated poorly in any way on here.. PLEASE take care not to paint us all with the same brush. I enjoy reading the debate between you and the more civil posters on here, and hope that will continue, but remember that some "noise" is not just the result of people religious about the RED, but more a symptom the kind of communication the internet tends to breed...

Thanks for jumping in here, and I hope you stick around.

Jay Kelley

:sleep:
 
I thought the article was very good Chris.
its to bad your taking so much backlash for it from some of the members here.
Ive only shot on the RED camera 2 times, so Im very inexpereicned with the system
Im still learning, but Im really looking forward to shooting on the camera more in the future
I felt your artical actually sumed everything up very nicely, and I learned a lot
 
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Hey Christopher - with not one but TWO threads arguing about your article, I have to say: Welcome to Reduser! Your initiation into the tribe is complete!

Not sure if you wanted to join us, but now you're stuck with us spending your days obsessively checking a web forum :)

I think we owe you a beer. Are you coming to Red Day?

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
 
Slammed pammed. So what. Do you like the R1? Do you enjoy it? That is what matters. Do you think anyone really cares if you slammed film?

For whatever reason I felt the need to respond with 3 points:
1-The R1 failed the ASC's camera assessment. It was not biased in anyway. The R1 IS a PROFESSIONAL, CINEMA camera. When put through those paces, it performed the worst. Not surprised either. But so what.
Part of the test was camera/shot set up, shoot, off load and posting. R1 was slowest in this regard, 35 was the fastest. Optical view finder and render time affected this greatly (RED Rocket changes the latter.)

2-The best looking R3D footage in a feature to date is in The Book of Eli. Mr. Burgess dislikes the camera and working with it.
So what.

3-If given the choice of shooting 35, I would without hesitation shoot film. My pref is all. (I do own and love my R1 btw)


Remember folks, it is a TOOL. Nothing more. Please, take your tool of choice and go work on your craft - you have lots to learn.
 
I've read the article and would say that it is a tad unfair in that it is somewhat outdated. It appears that with all the problems experienced, he continues to use Red's and looks forward to the newer models and sensors, so tacit praise there. If you really don't like something, you don't carry on using it.

Most of these issues are things that us pre-purchasers already know, yet we are still planning on buying an R1 because it offers us the never before available opportunity of shooting in the same resolutions and quality as the big budget productions, for the price of an average family car and on media that is relatively cheap and available. Compare that to £70K for a Sony HDCAM that you cannot plug your Nikon lenses onto and I'd say that Red more than makes up for the few niggles. Personally, with the relative "new-ness" of Red, I am astounded that the problems are as limited as they are, with what is essentially a first generation product that is still kind of a work in progress.

Whatever issues there may be*, lets face it, the R1 delivers stunning imagery after you have worked around any problems. That is proven every time I see a trailer for a new feature that just knocks your socks off - "Book of Eli" being the latest instalment. Another stunner is the BBC production "Wallander" with Kenneth Brannagh.

I'm more of a photographer than a technical guy (a lot of the technical stuff goes over my head), but I think the constant flagellation/denigration of Bayer type sensors is somewhat unfounded. Having used the same 6MP Nikon (Bayer sensor) for half a decade for professional photography and knowing what I can get out of it, I don't actually know what all the fuss is about. I know how good my still images look printed up big and beautiful off a 6MP massively compressed file (similar compression levels to redcode, incidentally). I am excited about what I am going to be able to do with my Red, at 10MP.

At the end of the day, those films shot on Red look damn good. All other issues aside, you'd be hard pressed to find the differences in the image quality between Red and say a Genesis. On that kind of level, you'd be getting into microscopic comparative analysis.... and quite frankly, does anyone really care, if the pictures look good and the story is decent?


*my personal bug bear is the need for infra-red cutting ND filters for shooting bright scenes when you want a wide open aperture without weird colour casts - I only discovered that this was a potential problem after buying and viewing Jeff Kaye's DVD
 
Who is Jeff Kaye? Did someone else do a DVD on the RED and I don't know about it?

I did do a segment you described in mine as well...

Hmmm... I'm confused.

:huh:

Jay Kelley
 
Didn't mean to come off badly though I think my posts concerning the article have been referred to a couple times. I'm here to learn/share above all and thanks to everyone's open opinion in general have been able to do so at many lengths!!
 
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