Welcome to our community

Be a part of something great, join today!

Log in
  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

RED One MX or Scarlet X?

To clarify, my point was that there was an opinion in some former thread here (I can't find it now), where 4K from a Red One MX was superior to 4K from the Scarlet. I believe the Scarlet was being used as a B camera to similar or the same monitors. Anyways, I'd like to see raw files as a comparison between the two cameras shot at 4K / 24 fps. I've shot with a R1 MX before, and I own a Scarlet, but never shot with both at the same time.
 
I notice some subtleties being discussed here - the devil is indeed in the details.

My perspective: the (used by well treated) R1MX is the better choice than the (new) Scarlet. Now, I don't work in the movie or TV industries. And I don't own a RED camera. But from the outside looking in, here is why I suggest the R1MX over the Scarlet (some points repeated from other comments):

1. Frame rate

2. Audio (apparently)

3. CF card compatibility (although for maximum reliability you shouldn't shoot at maximum frame rate - I think the max at 2K should be 107fps?)

4. Cost - a complete, used, R1MX kit is cheaper than a new Scarlet body.

5. You can have a second R1MX body for not much more (redundancy is more important than specification)

Disadvantages may not matter that much. The R1 is not a DSMC. But you are shooting motion, and, I presume, nothing but motion. You don't care that you can't fit the thing in your shirt pocket. Sure, you can do 5K stills on the Scarlet, but you aren't getting 24fps at that resolution, let alone 48fps. ISO? Well, yes, the Scarlet is better. Possibly better native DR, too (and HDRx is currently useless for motion). And as for 6K: you can't have it now and you certainly can't have it before EPIC owners.

You know what? ISO aside, a used R1MX is even better value than a new Canon 1DC (or even a used one which will happen eventually). Better resolution, better frame rate, better codec. I'd even prefer the R1MX to the 500C.

All IMHO, FWIW.
 
For me, the comparison between the two is kind of pointless, in terms of image-producing capabilities. I'd be happy shooting on either. Ofcourse, one needs to consider each cameras pros/cons many have already listed.

From a business standpoint, I will say in my market, I have yet to be inquired upon by a potential client who expresses the desire for their production to be shot on Scarlet. That's just my experience. I was booked with RED ONE just last week and booking it for two jobs this coming month. Almost never fails, size matters to clients. Even as long as EPIC has been out, clients just aren't wowed. To them, it seems more nifty than WOW. Just so damn small; it only impresses us camera nerds. Most importantly, as evident in the mix of opinions on this thread and others, ONE-MX has very comparable image quality with some operational plus and minuses when compared to Scarlet.

If you were in a similar market, I'd say a used-RED ONE-MX can possibly yield greater returns if you are an owner operator / DP-with-cam kinda business. With the used buy-in being so cheap, its really a no-brainer... at least for me, which is why I opted for stage 2 and do not plan on selling the ONE-MX. It's more valuable as a working camera than uber-marked-down, used sale. I'm sure there are many owner/ops making a living with their Scarlet package, but I wonder if they have a tough time selling their clients on it? You hear stories about EPIC having a tough time as it is, and that's the big bro.

That said, many jobs let me choose so when I can, I choose EPIC more often than not, but this is thread is about scarlet and redone-MX.
 
>R1= Better performance in general, access to cheap media via hard drives which have never failed us, not once.

But Red Drives are not available anymore.. is there any alternative?
Thanks.
 
SSD Module is available for R1...we use a combination of SSD and RED Drives (which are readily available in the used market).
 
What a tremendous amount of responses. A year has passed since starting the thread, I'd like to hear new opinions, now taking into consideration all the changes with scarlet being upgradeable, and the RED ONE MX falling even further in price. Thanks all, I appreciate you taking the time, as I am still debating to this day which route to go.
 
I've reviewed the replies and it seems that apart from technical opinions, Bob Gruen's advice seems the most valuable: "If being an owner/operator/DOP is the course you want to take I'd suggest looking at Atlanta." Atlanta or not, his point about LA's saturation seems valid to me. I have no reason to doubt what he's saying.

My opinion was that an R1MX is the better camera per dollar. Especially now. Can you afford an EPIC now? If so, go for it. But I don't completely know what your situation is, professionally and financially. Whichever camera you buy, you can always claim RED experience.
 
Rob Ruffo said:
R1= Better performance in general, access to cheap media via hard drives which have never failed us, not once. R1s are still used on some high-end sets. R1 has wider field of view (4K:16:9 is more field of view and more resolution than 4K:HD) and many totally useable slo-mo modes.
Scarlet = lighter camera - thats' the only advantage really, until Dragon comes, and price for Dragon upgrade for Scarlet will be more than $6000, we don;t yet know the exact price

r1 perceived as battle-tested reliable high-end camera by clients
Scarlet perceived as "junior version" and "student version" of Epic (hey don;t blast me, I am only reporting what I hear). You could not show up to a top-budget prod with a Scarlet except as a b-cam. AN r1, still, and maybe forever, yes. Many Hollywood prods have used R1s and Epics, NONE have used Scarlets as their main cam as they just rent an Epic- thus how perception is created.
Click to expand...

Yep.. 100% correct ... and Scarlet use for Wedding, music videos shortfilms etc...


REDONE BETTER

Thank you
 
I'll chime in here since I now own both cameras.

Bottom line, depends. IMO it especially depends on what kind of deal you can get on a used R1. Overall I prefer the Scarlet, but it really depends on your needs. Here's a breakdown of the pros/cons the way I see it.

R1 advantages:

Rock Solid with less concern for overheating and fan noise. Also I'd rather take a R1 into a dirty environment any day.
Better frame rates and 4.5k widescreen is awesome. I wouldn't be surprised to see this added to the Scarlet via firmware in the future eventually.
Much better audio!
Available Birger Mount!

IMO the media issue is silly because if I were going the R1 route I'd go with a SSD.

Scarlet Advantages.

Smaller and lighter.
Upgrade-able
Better resale as time goes on IMO
Interchangeable mounts! (This is huge IMO)
Much faster boot!
1080 out via SDI which is awesome when combined with an Atomos or PIX.
Much better GUI
Not "end of life"

IMO the Scarlet wins overall but it all depends on your needs.

Just my $0.02
 
we've been in the same situation as you, sean, a couple of months ago. scarlet or R1. we eventually settled for a R1. it seemed to be a question of more features (R1, fps, field of view, etc) vs. more userfriendliness (scarlet -> lighter and less bulky cam, much nicer GUI, etc.). also, the scarlet would have been much more expensive (and we got to buy an R1 that's only been used for 28 hours). so far, the only real downside of the R1 is the weight. other than that we're very very happy with it.

even though the R1 is now end of life, it will still be more than good enough for most things for a long time.
 
I bought a BT R1 last fall, received it this winter, and spent some time outfitting it, and starting the learning curve of being an owner operator with it..
Prior to this I had produced and been a dept head on projects with R1s and Epics. I also owned other brands of camera, and used even more other brands.
Prior to my purchase, I had a chance to have a hands on with R1, Epic, and Scarlet side by side, and to poll my clients.

Personally, I like the lighter weight, and as a lens hoarder, the interchangeable front is very interesting to me.

However, the frame rate v resolution choices on the scarlet, and the audio characteristics of the DSMC system did not appeal to me.
Also, as my primary mode of shooting is not handheld, the weight is not as key to me.

Financially, the Epic would have required borrowing money, and I did not want to do that at that time.


I am aware of a few projects that would have asked to have a scarlet body in the truck as a backup for the Epic, and theoretically could have placed a camera in that rental. However, the offer was too low to interest me in letting go of any of my cameras, since I shoot with them, and that offer was only willing to pay for days actually using the camera.

The clients I interact with who pay the most in rentals on camera, do want to specify the camera used. Sometimes they are correct, based on the needs of their shoot, and sometmes they are ordering gear with features that are un needed. However, none of the ad agencies I have dealt with would say "let's save some money by renting a Scarlet." They like seeing the word "EPIC" when they bring the client rep to set to look over the shoulder of the camera op at the talent or tabletop. I know that's shallow, but that's life.

Also, until the recent fan change, I do have people notice the fan noise from the DSMC cameras, and comment on it. When that's an actor or a network exec commenting, then I have a problem.

Also, if using a DSMC camera for interviews on sensitive topic interviews, there is no way I can do the interview in a small quiet space. You CAN NOT spook people who have been through a traumatic experience or who are waxing deeply philosophical with a loud background noise during an interview. It just does not work, even if you have put a hyper cardioid mic on or pointed at them. It would be like interviewing them on a construction site.


I have had significant ROI on my R1, and may well have had a lot more if I had borrowed money for an Epic.
I do not think I would have had more ROI on the scarlet, and proportionally, it would have been a lower percentage of my buy in.

All of the above aside:
The firmware for the Scarlet seems mature, and the camera feels entirely usable for drama narrative production, and is portable enough for lots of outdoor uses, and a shooting kit (with a couple of decent still lenses) is cheaper than a Sony F5.

an R1 kit is a little more than an FS700, to keep it in perspective.

The DSMC system is easier to use as a one man band unit, though still not effortless. I think no s35 chip camera is truly easy to use by yourself, unless its a dslr..

SO.... it's still about what you want to have in your kit. Make sure that the primary commodity you are offering is yourself, though. Just owning a camera package does not make for being a busy rental house.
 
Now I just finished reading the whole thread.
It's really very interesting.
But the newest reply is over half a year old.
So what about now? What about now when the upgrade to Scarlet Dragon is available?
Yes Epic is the best but for me it's too much money. I want to buy my first RED camera and start learning with it.
But used Red Scarlet X which is capable of upgrading to Dragon in the future looks like better deal than Red One MX?

What do you thing now when the Dragon upgrade is here?
 
Last edited:
Just to be clear, if you are talking about the Scarlet Dragon, that is not really yet "here." It is still waiting in the wings for its debut. If you are planning to trade up to Epic and can purchase an eligible Scarlet at a good price, go for it!
 
Terry VerHaar said:
Just to be clear, if you are talking about the Scarlet Dragon, that is not really yet "here." It is still waiting in the wings for its debut. If you are planning to trade up to Epic and can purchase an eligible Scarlet at a good price, go for it!
Click to expand...

Oppss. Ok. I didn't know that. Sorry. My mistake. :-)
And do you know when upgrade from Scarlet to Scarlet Dragon will be available? After NAB 2014?
OK. Last sentence? That's what I wanted to hear. Thanks
 
AFAIK, the dates for release of Scarlet Dragon are not yet known - except maybe inside RED. Personally, I think it might be awhile. Maybe we will see it this year.
 
If it were me I'd go Scarlet for sure!

I've owned both cameras. If I could only have one and was forced to never upgrade it and/or sell it, I'd go R1MX. But that's not the world we live in. The RED One is EOL and I suspect that it will tank in value in the next 12 months with the release of more 4k cameras and even more importantly Dragon. I suspect that a year from now MX will be very long in the tooth as the higher end market will be exclusively Dragon and the lower end will be dominated with lower price cameras like the GH4 and BMPCC and others that have yet to be announced.

Scarlet will hold it's value much better IMO.

With R1MX you are stuck in a dead end. In a year they'll be selling for less than $2k I bet.

Just my $0.02 worth.

:)
 
Troy Bakewell said:
If it were me I'd go Scarlet for sure!

I've owned both cameras. If I could only have one and was forced to never upgrade it and/or sell it, I'd go R1MX. But that's not the world we live in. The RED One is EOL and I suspect that it will tank in value in the next 12 months with the release of more 4k cameras and even more importantly Dragon. I suspect that a year from now MX will be very long in the tooth as the higher end market will be exclusively Dragon and the lower end will be dominated with lower price cameras like the GH4 and BMPCC and others that have yet to be announced.

Scarlet will hold it's value much better IMO.

With R1MX you are stuck in a dead end. In a year they'll be selling for less than $2k I bet.

Just my $0.02 worth.

:)
Click to expand...


I really think your projection is off. In order for you to record 4K on either of those mentioned cameras you would have to be about $5K invested in a rig, maybe more. The GH4 doesn't even record RAW and needs an external recorder that cost about 3k plus probably another $500 for sales tax. The R1MX will last much longer than 12mo. in the price range that its currently at.(6-7.5k) And if not, the fruits of its labor will be worth much more than any dollar amount offered.
 
Been in your position quite a while ago. Ended up with R1MX. If you want to grow up as a DP, get more jobs done, etc - go for it. Forget about Scarlet. Drop in Nikon mount (some 500 bucks) if you don't have a PL lenses. Get Samyang VDSLR 16, 24, 35, 85 T1.5 And it's a good start. Slow-mo, great resolution/coverage, excellent balance for stedicam, cheap media and many more bonuses. I also found R1MX to be more "trusted" camera for the client. They tend to consider Scarlet an entry-level machine. Well, it actually is :) I do not say that it is bad. It is good. But I found R1MX to be better and more universal in general.

And as I wrote in another thread - I am keeping mine. No matter of Dragon landing on my lap or Velociraptor being developed :) I got kind of attached to it.

Good luck!
 
One thing to remember when talking other cameras vs R1 MX, is that it is not really getting worse... I would've picked a R1 MX for a large project over most entry-level 4k cameras I know of.

On the R1 vs Scarlet, I do not really have a take.

But if you can pick up a cheapo R1 MX, it is like picking up an old film-cam with endless stock in it .

Not sure I would say the same of an 8-bit 422 4k cam or the next iPhone.

And R1 is a tank. You really have to do silly things to them to make them stop working.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top