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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Red One genlock tests for 3D....

Genlock for 3D at slow speeds

Genlock for 3D at slow speeds

No it does not, but what was your application for slow speed record in any case?
 
We were shooting Lego with a motion control rig doing a semi circle ending with a dolly in to a Ecloseup of a Lego Captain. (3 passes.)

First part of move was always to be speed up so I seem to remember that was why. Maybe it was to save some light and work at a lower stop.
 
Motion Control

Motion Control

Sidney said:
We were shooting Lego with a motion control rig doing a semi circle ending with a dolly in to a Ecloseup of a Lego Captain. (3 passes.)

First part of move was always to be speed up so I seem to remember that was why. Maybe it was to save some light and work at a lower stop.
Click to expand...

Not sure why that would have been a Genlock scenario, but glad you were able to use an alternate method that worked for you.
 
Sync and Build 30

Sync and Build 30

Have a shoot coming up and we will use two Red MX cameras on Build 30. Testing on build 21 we ended with the same results as Pedro. We will do tests closer to the shoot but I have been given a heads up that on Build 30 that the sync is now completely broken for ever speed but 23.98. Is this scuttlebutt? I will inform this thread of our results but has anyone been there yet?
 
if you read my findings and it's always been broken. Even at 23.98. But with 180 degree shutter it is completely unperceptive becuase the motion blue hides any issues. The only way you will ever see it is with very fast shutter speeds! who shoots like that at 24fps anyway? When was the last thing you shot at 24fps with a 1/2000th shutter?

The builds haven"t affected anything. YET.

to be clear, the shutters LOCK. The slate claps at the same time. It's more of a subframe phase discrepancy only noticable with very fast shutter speeds.

it's only when shooting at 120fps that it MAY start to become noticeable. I've shoot things at 120 in 3D where it's really hard to see an issue (without glasses on) and stuff where you can clearly see it. Depends what you shooting!

Even then once you put glasses on your brain mixes everything and does attempt to cover up things. Brain doing extra work can lead to extra fatigue after awhile. Granted this is not a desirable situation at all. I do wish we could get the sync/phase 100% perfect.

I can imagine RED is 100% consumed with working on epic/scarlet and just cannot devote any cycles to addressing the problem. Especially since it's not preventing you from shooting 3D. It's really me nitpicking and wanting things to be 100% as with other cameras we use.

Shoot away......certainly haven't stopped me.
 
Build 30 non issue

Build 30 non issue

Pedro,

We have done extensive testing with Build 21 and our results have been identical to yours. Thankyou, Good to hear that Build 30 is no worse. Again we will do some tests and the shoot I will post the results in mid june.
 
Pedro Guimaraes said:
if you read my findings and it's always been broken. Even at 23.98. But with 180 degree shutter it is completely unperceptive becuase the motion blue hides any issues. The only way you will ever see it is with very fast shutter speeds! who shoots like that at 24fps anyway? When was the last thing you shot at 24fps with a 1/2000th shutter?

The builds haven"t affected anything. YET.
Click to expand...

At 1/2000th, your exposure time is 1/2 a millisecond or a ~4.6 degree shutter. Position on screen with a spinning or focal plane film shutter or a rolling shutter would cause the objects to shift a bit. That's just par for the course and I don't believe it's related to sync.
 
Build 30 non issue

Build 30 non issue

Tom Gleeson said:
Pedro,

We have done extensive testing with Build 21 and our results have been identical to yours. Thankyou, Good to hear that Build 30 is no worse. Again we will do some tests and the shoot I will post the results in mid june.
Click to expand...


Pedro,

Shoot done. Seven days shooting with Build 30 cameras with not a single problem. We Genlocked and locked the timecode as well as using the USB camera connection. Apart from the weight of two Red cameras, masterprimes and rig the shoot went butter smooth. Now just need to wait on Post to see if they have any issues.

If there is a lesson to be learnt from my 3D shooting is that adequate camera prep time is mandatory. If not you are heading to a world of pain.

Tom Gleeson DOP
Sydney
 
after 3 works in 3d that went perfectly smooth, i now was in despair because of a 1/2 frame difference between left & right in my latest work.
I went reading through all this thread, and, arrived at the very bottom, i totally agree with pedro. ( it didn't take that long to actually agree with him, but i went to the bottom anyway...)
Both reds are synced and are very consistent, but a variable phase offset is always there. what is strange, going through all previous works, is that it actually varies from work to work, from almost perfect to annoying ( 1/2 i think is the worst possible scenario.)
It may depend on the startup of cameras, or the power of genlock. i don't know. looks like i'm going deep into testing on this.
i confirm everything pedro said.
both locks are there, correct genlock switches.
timecode, even with timecode cable, differs randomly, and left & right files are a variable amount of frames different in length.
i'm still hoping there's a misterious menu switch or button i forgot to press...

thank you pedro and all other contributors for your detailed reports. it's been really a source of knowledge to me.
 
Pedro had conducted these tests under my direction back in March prior to our first RED ONE stereoscopic feature. We were quite concerned by the empirical results but as many have noticed, in the end it did not matter. As stated elsewhere in this thread, the AJA Gen10 will sync at 23.976 and other frame rates that are multiples of this. That being said we have successfully shot quite a lot of fast moving subjects (feature film fight scenes, world champion ski jumpers, bikini models spraying each other with water, 750hp Shelby Mustangs drag racing, etc) at 120fps with GREAT results and no discernible sync problems. Some of these can be seen on the 21st Century 3D You Tube channel including the crowd favorite, 3D Bikini Car Wash:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6h7ZieZH9U
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hz6fAFXOncc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEoGFnT2vj8

The only problems we've run into related to sync or rolling shutter were with lightning strikes or other flashes with durations less than one frame time, but everybody knows that already. IT IS CRITICALLY IMPORTANT TO HAVE A STEREO MONITOR ON YOUR STEREO RED SETUP AND TO LEAVE IT IN 3D MODE AT ALL TIMES. I never shoot without a Transvideo 3D View and monitor left and right at all times while shooting. The Transvideo is an extremely reliable piece of gear. If the monitor is not happy with the genlock, you are likely not locked. Mess with it until you get a stable image and you'll be in business.

Jason Goodman
CEO
21st Century 3D New York
505 8th Avenue #1006
New York, NY 10018
212-244-8585

21st Century 3D Hollywood
3450 Cahuenga Blvd W #509
Los Angeles, CA 90068
323-799-1046

http://www.21c3d.com
jason@21stcentury3d.com
 
Jason Goodman said:
including the crowd favorite, 3D Bikini Car Wash:
Click to expand...

"crowd favorite" indeed! :smile:

I smile every time I watch that....perfect application of RED's 120fps 3D capability....instant classic.

Like Jason pointed out, flashes are an issue (duh) and also any source(bulb) of LED light.....led tailights, led digital numerical displays, alarm clocks etc...
 
Stuart,

I will be testing build 30.6 soon, but our REDs are on a shoot and I will not have access for a few days. Can you please elaborate on the improved accuracy? Does it only improve the "returning from playback" issue or does it address shutter phase? Again, our empirical results tell us that the shutters are out of phase, even when the cameras are properly genlocked, but we have shot plenty of 3D footage (including 120fps) and the problem is usually not visually perceptible.

Jason Goodman
CEO
21st Century 3D New York
505 8th Avenue #1006
New York, NY 10018
212-244-8585

21st Century 3D Hollywood
3450 Cahuenga Blvd W #509
Los Angeles, CA 90068
323-799-1046

http://www.21c3d.com
jason@21stcentury3d.com
 
Shutter Sync

Shutter Sync

Jason, best to do your own tests as ours have always said the shutters are NOT normally out of phase when Genlocked.

However we COULD get the shutters significantly out of phase after exiting PLAYBACK, and this phase error can persist.
 
Stuart, what about this phase error when doing Mo-Co?
I just did a bunch of days with a Mo-Co rig where both my MX and the Mo-Co rig were being driven my an AJA Gen10. Seemed to work like a charm. We did use playback on the Red to "check the media", as always, before moving on. Is it possible to lose genlock under these circumstances?
I have not had a panicked call from the client so I assume no news is good news. Can you shed any technical light why this error happens?
Cheers,
Harry
 
Genlock and MOCO

Genlock and MOCO

It was possible to lose Genlock under that circumstance, as you were entering and exiting playback. But it doesn't mean you actually did lose Genlock.

With Build 30.6.0 though, that possibility has been removed.
 
Gotcha. Again, I assume since two weeks have passed and there was no panicked call, the Mo-Co job was fine in my case.
I did notice that the padlock would have a circle/slash on it for a few seconds after each play back on the camera... not sure if the padlock status is to be trusted under 30.5?
Cheers,
Harry
 
I would recommend using a Transvideo 3D View monitor at all times. It is very sensitive in as much as it will not show a stable picture in 3D mode if Genlock is not solid. Restarting the Gen 10 will bring reliable genlock back.

Jason Goodman
CEO
21st Century 3D New York
505 8th Avenue #1006
New York, NY 10018
212-244-8585

21st Century 3D Hollywood
3450 Cahuenga Blvd W #509
Los Angeles, CA 90068
323-799-1046

http://www.21c3d.com
jason@21stcentury3d.com
 
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