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Red One dilemma...

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Peter Majtan

Peter Majtan

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OK Jim, please hear me out...

I know how important Red One is to the current positioning of RED in the market. It is Red One that gives all the credibility to Your posts and announcements. And I know You have not only promised to not to make it obsolete, but You have also generously offered the 100% refund for the body towards EPIC...

All said and done - I think the only way to move forward is to "kill" Red One in its current shape & form. Before anyones attacks me - please read on...

Considering that EPIC will be lot smaller, lighter and of course more advanced, we still have to keep in mind the $40K price tag. I am about to commit $100K on first own Red One package. Granted about 3/4 of that is for accessories that I will be using with any other camera that may come out. And I am certainly not hesitating in going ahead, since the main reason for getting the Red One is to upgrade it to EPIC...

As silly as it might sound - I believe it is the Red One and Your commitment to it - that holds You back and gives You many sleepless nights...

You don't want to piss off the few (thousands) of loyal followers that helped You turn RED into reality...

I think I have a solution:

Red One - mark II:

- use the same body as EPIC (will bring the overall manufacturing cost down)
- give it new internals that address the processing power, speed and heat issues
- give it a new S35 sensor the resolves "true" 4K (that means 5.4K or there about) - EDIT: Optional... :)
- my ONLY issue with Red One is the limited frame-rates - if You want to go up to 120FPS You need to drop to 2K and either use completely new set of lenses, or loose the wide angles. So please make it higher speed without having to reduce resolution...

Keep the body at the current 17.5K (or there about) and do the following:

- all owners of current Red Ones will get free swap to the new body as soon as it is available...
- all reservation holders will get the new version once it is available - with the option to wait for the new design...
- those who really need RED camera now and can't wait - will still buy the Red One if they know they can upgrade it to the new model with full trade-in/swap, but keep in mind that not everyone want to swap to $40K Epic...

Maybe the new changes to EPIC/SCARLET will address this issue in a different (and better) way...

It is still not too late - and what ever happens, I am still getting Red One (as for me it really is a deposit for EPIC). But I think the time has come to let Red One current shape & form go...

She will be remembered and cherished for eternity - no doubt there, but let's not linger in the past...

Just my one peso... :)

PS: I am running a high fever and maybe it is just my overcooked brain talking here - so please read this with a grain of salt... :)
 
I can here the RedOne owners about to pounce!:waaa:
 
not necessarily. red could create custom lenses for that size like imax and then let you use pl mount lenses on a 4k windowed portion of the sensor just like is possible with 16mm lenses now
 
What you're asking is for Red to sell everyone two cameras for the price of one and how could Red be happy with losing money on every Red One sale?

The price for a Red One is phenomenal compared to the other cinema camera manufacturers and the profit margin can't be very wide on it - add up the cost of research and development, the manufacturing of the body itself and then the fixed overhead of the company.

So let's do the math. Red lays out (wild guess) $15,500 for a Red One and sells it to us for $17,500. Then it costs them a further $15,500 for a Red One Mrk II that they just hand over to use in exchange for the Red One.

$15,500 + $15,500 - $17,500 = $13,500

So either they lose $13,500 on every Red One sale or they turn around and try to sell the traded in Red One for nearly the price of a brand new Red One Mrk II and who in their right mind would pay that unless they could trade it in on a Red One Mrk II... putting Red in a money losing cycle.

The full cost trade in on the Epic is a very generous offer that is only possible because the Epic is going to be that much more expensive than the Red One. I also think that they will have to restrict that offer to the original purchaser of the Red One or, if they want to sell the traded in Red Ones back to the public, they will have to restrict each body to being traded in only once toward an Epic.

So I think that if I trade in Red #351 on an Epic, then Red refurbishes it and sells it back out to the public, never again could Red #351 be traded for a new Epic.

Of course, the numbers above are guesses used to illustrate a point and the speculation on trade in policy is simply that- speculation.
 
I think RED should end of life RED ONE for a variety of reasons (mostly support/bugs/too many products etc), but they should raise the price to $25K-$30K and call that product EPIC. Give everyone the $17,500 trade. We were always going to pay for RED ONE upgrade... it's just whether it was $3000 or $10000. And if you want to keep the RED you can, but at those numbers I think you'd see most trade up. Put a time limit on the trade offer and nearly everyone would do it. Now there's only 2 products.. the truly modular EPIC and whatever Scarlet/Still Camera turns out to be (I think that should be one product if possible)

Then again... RED's going to a lot of trouble to upgrade i/pin and audio data in RED ONE so maybe they don't plan to kill it. Or maybe they do.

But a free EPIC trade for every RED isn't reasonable. RED ONE is worth $40k right now.

edit - I want to add that I don't think RED owes a solution like the one above. They've been more than fair already. And EPIC at $40K with a RED trade in is generous. I'm just saying that's what I'd be considering if I ran the show because I think supporting both RED and EPIC might be a costly burden - but I don't have enough information as I sit here in the cheap seats second guessing the coach ('cause it's fun!). :-)
 
What about combining Epic/Scarlet/DSMC call it a RedTwo and sell for the same price as RedOne! RedOne be discontinued(as far as new ones go), but have firmware updates and upgradeable everything as usual. Make RedTwo cameras as the ''New'' Red bad boy.:devil:


Or just keep making RedOne(because of S35 size sensor) and make RedTwo(Full Frame 35mm Still Sensor Camera) both at the same price!
Or lower RedOne price and have RedTwo $17,500.
Or Keep RedOne price and have RedTwo slightly higher price.
Or Keep RedOne price and have RedTwo lower price.
 
This is another idea.

RedTwo

RedTwo is very similar approach to RedOne but built for the differ Sensor Size.

Have Red make a Modular/upgradeable Full Frame Still Camera, DSMC, then build up to Scarlet, and then all the way to Epic and beyond. Have a three level starting plan then build up, with price, for individual needs. Price and names are not important since it is a RedTwo camera built/configured differently for the customers needs.

1- DSMC $1500
2- Scarlet $3000
3- Epic $17,500+

RedOne is still active for any S35mm camera needs.
 
I think you all just ask to much.
How many times in your life , have you experienced a trade in at full value.
I'm even happy when i get 1/2 for a german car right now after 2 or 3 years.
And even then i can't sell it to the dealer or I'm ripped off.

I think Red has been real kind to us to offer this kind of future deal.
But the less a total package will cost, imho, the faster this whole business will get doomed until there's nothing left.

The degradation off currency and the lowering of asking prices for productions and the higher costs for living a normal life are already out of balance for most off us right now. So I suppose , when you lower that again, people won't appreciate anything anymore , and expect always much more...

Red has given us a way to think, where there was none before...

If we just want to get prices lower, then we should be asking all parties; software, hardware, etc...
 
Peter... You are right because Red said you can trade in RedOne for deposit towards Epic.

I think Red would be loosing money IF Redone and Epic is similar in price range and everyone starts to buy Epic or just want RedOne till they can get a Epic. Then what happens is the RedOnes start to accumulate and Red has more RedOnes left over unless they sell back used RedOnes at a discount price. Anyone who just wants a New RedOne can have it, but Red should also sell used ones.

Red shouldn't be hampered with old tech, but keep making free firmware upgrades and let the customer pay for hardware upgrades if they really have a nit pick or whatever? Red should only pay for hardware upgrades if it is their fault. :red_bandana:
 
Hi,

Often a company will destroy equipment accepted in part exchange, I guess that was or will be the fate of the Vipers traded for F23's.

Stephen
 
Stephen Williams said:
Hi,

Often a company will destroy equipment accepted in part exchange, I guess that was or will be the fate of the Vipers traded for F23's.

Stephen
Click to expand...

If Red decides to destroy used RedOnes can I take care of that process? :shifty: I will gladly take them off their hands.:innocent:
 
Pure Speculation

Pure Speculation

Artificial Inflation- It's impossible for a computer, digital camera, etc to maintain full value year after year. As technology advances it depreciates- you can't help that.

A RED ONE plus the Mysterium-X upgrade Est. 10K
Monstro upgrade Est. 15K
you'd probably be looking at 41K without the improved heat circulation, or boards or circuitry.

Jump to the Epic at a bargain, less than cost of upgrading, and continued Value Retention 2 years plus.

Keep the Red don't upgrade 17.5K- if it's enough for you that's great- how many horses does anyone really need?

Scarlett- I suspect with the New Canon 1080, and the Ikon 1080 it will be more robust and cost 8K.

So 4 tiers- as in any business,pick the one that suits you best
 
Vladimir Eugene said:
Scarlett- I suspect with the New Canon 1080, and the Ikon 1080 it will be more robust and cost 8K.
Click to expand...
and let the crowd for the majors?.. :) :) your business model is a decent joke..
 
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