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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Red One connector "what is what"

That would work great with progressive signals. Note that model is discontinued, Gefen has a rplacement model which also has Dual link HD-SDI for 1080p RGB 4:4:4, Image adjustments and a more advanced scaler: http://www.gefen.com/kvm/product.jsp?prod_id=3876

Another option is the Decklink HDLink which is half the price:
That supports dual link for 1080p RGB 4:4:4 from the red and has a custom gamma editor
 
Anders, you must be an engineer. You know this stuff inside and out! So it sounds like such an adapter could allow for a cheaper monitoring solution:

BlackMagic HDLink (outputs to DVI or HDMI) $445.00 U.S.
1024x768 LCD monitor with DVI input $210 U.S.

Total $655.

Not exactly portable. But cheap and maybe workable for focus and framing?
 
Andrew said:
So pci express bus is not fast enough to handle 8Gbits/sec?
http://www.dell.com/content/topics/global.aspx/vectors/en/2004_pciexpress?c=us&l=en&s=corp
So what bus is used for RAW PORT.
I thought that RAW PORT is 10GB pci express?
I like this modular design, it is like in 1982 when IBM came up with PC XT
Can you imagine a camera that has standard interfaces/bus so you can mix PC hardware with Camera on boar/off board hardware. RED is almost there if not THERE.
Click to expand...

ExpressCard and PCI Express are not the same thing. ExpressCard is for mobile computers -- it's the new slot replacing the old PCMCIA standard. It does share some of PCI Express' technical traits. It has the ability to go multi-lane for increased bandwidth, for example. As it stands right now, ExpressCard is 2.5Gbps or roughly 300MB/s -- the same as SATA.

When you buy the RED camera, it has some sort of mount point for a FLASH module, which attaches using a proprietary eSATA+power connector. Those FLASH modules will be available in three different versions: One that takes CF cards, one that takes ExpressCard media, and one that holds 1.8" SATA hard disk media -- FLASH SSD's needed for reliability and performance though. You can buy any one of these or all of them if you wish and mount whichever to the camera you want when you want.

The RAW port is something else entirely. It requires removal of the mount point and eSATA interface for the FLASH modules. Which is replaced with 10Gbps (1250MB/s) optical interface. We don't know the specs yet other than it requires factory installation and it's 10G optical fiber.
 
Note that for the HD link your DVI LCD display MUST support 1920 x 1200 input to be able to work with the 1080 HD-SDI output, or MUST support 1280 x 800 for the 720p HD-SDI output.

This is because it does not include a scaler chip (other than the 2 x SD pixel doubling mode) like the gefen box.

So if you want to monitor the HD-SDI 1080 output, you should really be looking for a 1920 x 1200 display.
The upside is that you get a sharp 1:1 pixel mapping.
 
Sean said:
Anders, you must be an engineer. You know this stuff inside and out! So it sounds like such an adapter could allow for a cheaper monitoring solution:

BlackMagic HDLink (outputs to DVI or HDMI) $445.00 U.S.
1024x768 LCD monitor with DVI input $210 U.S.

Total $655.

Not exactly portable. But cheap and maybe workable for focus and framing?
Click to expand...

I have an HDLink, and it is certainly a good low cost monitoring solution. However, it wouldn't work in the setup you describe. It is a pixel for pixel converter in DVI mode, so needs a 1920 pixel wide display like the 23" Apple Cinema Display to show 1080 HD. You can't use a 1024x768 display unless it has an HDMI input, and scales internally, in which case you don't need an HDLink, you could use the RED 720p HDMI output.
 
Sean said:
Interesting about the scaling issues. But 720 pixel wide is sufficient for focus right? So from the sounds of it you could use the HDLink to get a 720 monitoring solution for Red from a 1280x800 monitor.
Click to expand...

Well, it's actually 720 pixels high, 1280 wide. And no, it's not going to be sufficient for focus -- especially if you're shooting 4K. This is where Graeme's killer new focus assist comes in. That and a good eye, feel for distance and a nice tape measure and you're ready to roll.
 
AppliedVisual said:
The RAW port is something else entirely. It requires removal of the mount point and eSATA interface for the FLASH modules. Which is replaced with 10Gbps (1250MB/s) optical interface. We don't know the specs yet other than it requires factory installation and it's 10G optical fiber.
Click to expand...

The ability to have RAW recording, without taking it out via RAW PORT, will be a great feature. Even if it mean only 120 seconds recording time. Once you have it in the flash, you can transfer it in to RED DISK and shoot next 120 seconds if need be.

I am very curious where the RAW PORT is connected on the camera.
Especially I am curious if it is using the standard bus or not.
 
Good news

Good news

The good news is that you will not have to transcode HD-SDI to HDMI as there is a HDMI output right on the side of the camera. Last I heard the HDMI is limited to 720 by 1,280 but the type of monitors you are talking about are likely to perform best at that resolution anyway.
 
Yes, the easiest way would be to use the HDMI port for a 1280x768 monitor

What this discussion came from (As I understood it) was the option of using cheap and thin/flexible BNC cable, with very long cable support, to drive a cheap monitor at 1080p. A 1920x1200 lcd display and the hd-link still seems to be the best option for that.

If a thicker cable, shorter cable lenght and 720p is good enough, the hdmi is a great option (and would MAYBE show surroundview and overlays as well...)
 
Anders Holck said:
Yes, the easiest way would be to use the HDMI port for a 1280x768 monitor

What this discussion came from (As I understood it) was the option of using cheap and thin/flexible BNC cable, with very long cable support, to drive a cheap monitor at 1080p. A 1920x1200 lcd display and the hd-link still seems to be the best option for that.

If a thicker cable, shorter cable lenght and 720p is good enough, the hdmi is a great option (and would MAYBE show surroundview and overlays as well...)
Click to expand...

From what I can see to drive a 1080 monitor or television you need an HD-link and two BNC cables from the camera to the HDLINK. Then, from the HDLink you would go DVI to the monitor or DVI-HDMI then HDMI to the television.

The only reason I'm restating it is not because I think you misunderstand it--but because I want to make sure that I do!

Thom
 
Andrew said:
The ability to have RAW recording, without taking it out via RAW PORT, will be a great feature. Even if it mean only 120 seconds recording time. Once you have it in the flash, you can transfer it in to RED DISK and shoot next 120 seconds if need be.

I am very curious where the RAW PORT is connected on the camera.
Especially I am curious if it is using the standard bus or not.
Click to expand...

We're not sure how the RAW port connects to the camera and if it's some form of standard bus interconnect or not. I highly doubt it's all that standard, most likely it's a proprietary interface to one of the internal communication paths inside the camera.

The FLASH modules are using SATA, so don't have the bandwidth needed for uncompressed RAW acquisition, or at least not at the frame rates that make capturing uncompressed RAW desirable.

Now it would be theoretically possible to build a high-speed RAM buffer in two ways. One is a buffer that would connect to the installed RAW PORT and would capture that sort of data, and then log it to disk. Basically, you would plug your RED DRIVE or RED RAM into this buffer memory module and let it be the intermediate uncompressed solution from the camera to disk. Or... Instead of installing the RAW PORT. Perhaps another factory install option could be the RAM buffer itself or a different sort of interface to the RAM buffer, not necessarily the 10G fiber. It could make due with something more suited for very short distance transmission since it's on camera. I think a RAM buffer for capturing 30 seconds or so of uncompressed RAW at a time might be a good option for some. But I'm not so sure it would be much (if any) cheaper than the RAW PORT add-on. It would also be bulky as it would probably require its own power source. And no point in designing such a solution that runs tethered. At that point you may as well use the RAW PORT and not be limited to small takes and then the down-time for the camera to process and convert the captured data into REDCODE RAW.

But this really belongs in that other thread about the RAM buffer.
 
Thom, you do need two BNC cables in parallel to run the HD-SDI at RGB 4:4:4, if you switch the RED Master HD-SDI output to 4:2:2 you only need one cable.
HD-Link takes both, so it's possible to switch back and forth where applicable.
 
Ah, it is all becoming clear. So to run a Cinema Display or even a 1080i (Say the Sony XSRD high end consumer television) you could either run it at 4:4:4 or 4:2:2 and the 4:2:2 would not have as great of color--or what would the difference be?
 
4:4:4 is RGB color space in full resolution.

4:2:2 is Component Y, Pb, Pr, with the Y component in full resolution and the two color components subsampled to half resolution on the x axis.

So in 4:2:2 you get a slight image degrade by the color space conversion, and then horisontal color pixilation by the subsampling.

It's clear that the RGB image will be closer to the recorded image, but the 4:2:2 image might be good enough.
 
Great thanks. Single line sounds like it would certainly be good enough for a remote framing monitor (crane, etc) but wouldn't be that much more of a hastle to bind two parallel lines to drop back to the video villiage. Definately seems like the best solution.

I guess, then if you need multiple monitors then you would need to either split the HD-SDI with something like this:

http://www.gefen.com/kvm/product.jsp?prod_id=2564

Then you would need one HDLink for each monitor you want to drive, or an DVI-D splitter such as...

http://www.cablestogo.com/product.asp?cat_id=3104&sku=40356

if it is okay to be bound by DVI distances once you get to the HDLink.
 
AppliedVisual said:
I think a RAM buffer for capturing 30 seconds or so of uncompressed RAW at a time might be a good option for some. But I'm not so sure it would be much (if any) cheaper than the RAW PORT add-on. It would also be bulky as it would probably require its own power source. And no point in designing such a solution that runs tethered.
Click to expand...

I don’t think the RAM buffer will be bulky. If you take out the RAW PORT then wherever the raw port is plugged in you plug the RAM buffer card, like it is right now done for express flash card. The other possibility is, to have lossless REDCODE RAW recorded to the SATA disk that uncompress exactly to the RAW, instead REDCODE RAW that do not uncompress exactly to the RAW data. With the compression 4 to one we should be able to record it to the SATA devices. Do you know what the compression ratio of REDCODE RAW is now? And why it is called REDCODE RAW if it is not uncompressing to exactly original RAW data, or I am wrong on this one?
 
Andrew,
The expresscard flash module is still not connected to the same bus as the RAW option. It is mounted on the same place on the camera but the expresscard module is user replaceable so it's not the same bus as the RAW option.

Redcode RAW is a varialble compression codec. The compression ratio that is adverticed today is about 11:1 for 4k redcode RAW.

RAW just means a singlechannel bayer encoded image, as opposed to a three channel RGB image. Redcode RAW retains the single channel bayer data thruout it's compression.

Uncompressed RAW 4k at 24fps would be 323MB/s, with a 4:1 codec you are still looking at 80MB/s
 
So Anders did an awesome job of theorizing about possible connectors on Red One. My question is how do you think I will connect the Red Drive to a computer for importing the footage files into RedCine? It's not a traditional "capture" from tape, obviously, so I don't imagine needing an AJA or decklink card for this. Is it a firewire connection between the Red Drive and my PC NLE?
 
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