RED One and Master Primes issues

[Fredrik Callinggard]

Well that was kind of expected. Of course there's a flip side to that coin, but I don't think it's very far off. I don't blame RED I think they need to conduct business as everyone else and try to make some money. I've heard Jim can be a stubborn MF and so you have to be to get to were he is today. After all a quote from Gordon Gekko is appropriate "Christmas is christmas, business is business. Dilute the MTF!"

The sad thing MIGHT BE, that I don't think RED has an actual multi mount in mind and if they do, will it be as good? Aren't they planning on having re-attachable mounts?

Edit: I'm judging that the PS mount is very good from knowing and owning some of their other products and their built quality. I have actually not seen the mount in real life.

 

[Jarred Land]

You guys are only seeing half the story.. but yes, the PS mount does indeed void your warranty and toss out the EPIC upgrade option.

 

[RivaiC]

so what is the other half story ?

 

[M Hsu]

so what is the other half story ?

please be nice to jarred, he works hard making sure everyone gets along.

 

[Ketch Rossi]

We have done, not one but many tests with RED ONE and MP's and RPP's as well as the RPZ 18-85.

Results..

Unless you need below T*1.8 I found the RPP's and the RPZ absolutely stunning, possibly a small color shift difference, but really minute, the RPP's are similar in their cool look as the MP's vs. the Cokes which produce a more known warmer tones, I prefer the RPP's MP's look best, and get as true color temperature as possible.

To me is a no brainer, I have loved the MP's since I first got my hands on them, and still do, but will never spend that kinda of money when the RPP's are as good, don't say better, even so I think that to my eye in some exemptions they are, and we were getting in very hard to distinguish one form the other, including the RPZ.

test were done not technically, I hate those, I prefer pretty girls in front of my lens, then charts!!

As I don't have anything to post as we were not recording, and didn't analyze the footage other then viewing it on a projector were the lenses were attached to it directly, and then on the camera, were the images were viewed on a Pro monitor.


I just truly hope that the MF lenses for the Epic 645, my camera system of choice to also replace my Hassy MF photography gear, are as good as the RPP's and RPZ and I will never need an other lens, again, Zeiss, Hassy or Leica, no matter how great this lenses are, the RPP's are truly amazing, and UNBELIEVABLE when considering the Price point, which people continue to forget some times especially when comparing them to such lenses as the Zeiss MP at 6 to 9 times their cost.

Oh.. and the MP's worked flawlessly on the R1.

 

[Tony Lorentzen]

If I was Sanjin - I'd be bummed out.

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

If anybody has a problem with RED1 and PL FFD (especially using high-end lenses like a MPs or RPPs)

there is a pretty good device from German company Denz called the Flange Depth Controller.

Read more>>>

It looks promising and I decided to get one soon.

The price is Euro 3.285 without taxes.

 

[RivaiC]

please be nice to jarred, he works hard making sure everyone gets along.

M Hsu..i dont mean anything at all. I'm asking..i want to know as well. PS has said their reason and now it's time for RED to tell their story. I dont mean any harm at all. What Jarred said seeing half of the story doesnt help much in order for us to understand the situation.

 

[Charles Angus]

This is definitely a backfocus issue with either the lens or the camera.

I think the reason why people think there are problems with the MP's specifically is that sharp T1.3 lenses will show off any tiny discrepancies.

 

[Robert Horwell]

Thanks for all your answers!



I also think it has something to do with the back focus adjustment of the camera or the IMS mount and not with the MS lenses.



Hmmm... we don't want the mount to work perfect only with MPs, because there are other lenses as well, like UPs, S4 ans Zeiss HS you can rent the cam with.
Shouldn't the mount already been colimated to the standard 52mm? I mean that's also the reason why P&S allows you to replace the original mount with their mount by your own.

We tested all the lenses on the colimator and there they looked very good.

How can you colimate the RED One properly with the IMS mount? the normal method you use with your film cameras is not working because you would touch the sensor...
How could I do this?


Thanks!
Simon

Be good to know who we are talking to, maybe you could use your real name?

 

[Robert Horwell]

If anybody has a problem with RED1 and PL FFD (especially using high-end lenses like a MPs or RPPs)

there is a pretty good device from German company Denz called the Flange Depth Controller.

Read more>>>

It looks promising and I decided to get one soon.

The price is Euro 3.285 without taxes.

I bought a RED NULL from ABEL CINE, they are great and a much lower price point than the DENZ, which i also considered. They are very diifferent designs but i can honestly say that the outcome will be the same with the DENZ as the RED NULL, i.e a collimated camera.

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

I bought a RED NULL from ABEL CINE, they are great and a much lower price point than the DENZ, which i also considered. They are very diifferent designs but i can honestly say that the outcome will be the same with the DENZ as the RED NULL, i.e a collimated camera.

Not so sure about colimation precision from RED Null that has fixed 52mm FFD because with FDC from Denz you exactly know where

your mount "stands", behind or in front of the PL FFD of 52mm and shows you that exactly in microns at your monitor preview, EVF, ...

That's something else and it is all about precision you would need when you work with the lenses like MPs,...

 

[Pawel Achtel]

Pawel has Master Primes and he doesn't seem to even look at the LCD when focusing. Just shoots the laser and dials it up on the MPs. Smack on every time! I'm pretty sure he said he didn't even have to adjust the back focus, it was dead on from the factory.

He can't resist a good MP chat so I'm sure he'll chime in soon! :001_tongue:

Jim :biggrinjester:

Thanks Jim,

As others said, either your lenses are out, your mount or both.

First, get the lenses tested at Arri and check the back focal distance. Especially, make sure your widest lens is spot on 52.000 mm. Once all your lenses have the correct back focal distance, adjust your mount on Red One using the widest lens, fully opened.

You can trust the scale on MPs and I did use Leica Disto to dial-in the focus with some amazing precision. That is before 1:1 zoom was available and it was the only way I could actually focus!

And, no, you don't need to send your camera to P+S. It would be a waste of time (and money).

 

[Antoine Fabi]

Last year, i was tempted, but i did not buy a IMS because i heard it voided the warranty, but i think it is was a really good idea, and i really dont understand "why" it voids the warranty, really...

I mean, it was in perfect line with RED initial philosophy of versatility, affordable high quality optics.

I too would like to undertand the real "why".

Antoine

 

[Stephen Williams]

Not so sure about colimation precision from RED Null that has fixed 52mm FFD because with FDC from Denz you exactly know where

your mount "stands", behind or in front of the PL FFD of 52mm and shows you that exactly in microns at your monitor preview, EVF, ...

That's something else and it is all about precision you would need when you work with the lenses like MPs,...

Hi,

There is more to go wrong with the Denz, for RedOne with its stock mount, I would go with null.

Stephen

 

[Mitch Gross]

The simplicity and direct functionality of the NULL is why it works so well. There is nothing to slip out of calibration over time. All other devices have adjustable parts. With adjustment there is room for play. With play comes innaccuracy. The NULL just works.

 

[Robert Horwell]

Sanjin, feel free to spend your hard earned money on the DENZ system. It's not a debate, just friendly advice on something that is out there and working, plenty of people have bought the NULL and it does exactly what it says on the tin. I think every RED owner should have one, when you think what it does and the short time and lack of fuss it makes of the collimation process, it's the perfect tool. Certainly it could have helped these guys who started this thread narrow down the potential cause of the Master Primes being out, saving time and money, and we all want to save that! :smiley:

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

Hi,

There is more to go wrong with the Denz, for RedOne with its stock mount, I would go with null.

Stephen

The simplicity and direct functionality of the NULL is why it works so well. There is nothing to slip out of calibration over time. All other devices have adjustable parts. With adjustment there is room for play. With play comes innaccuracy. The NULL just works.

Sanjin, feel free to spend your hard earned money on the DENZ system. It's not a debate, just friendly advice on something that is out there and working, plenty of people have bought the NULL and it does exactly what it says on the tin. I think every RED owner should have one, when you think what it does and the short time and lack of fuss it makes of the collimation process, it's the perfect tool. Certainly it could have helped these guys who started this thread narrow down the potential cause of the Master Primes being out, saving time and money, and we all want to save that! :smiley:

Guys,

for sure THE NULL is very OK but relays just on your eyes and as we know well "our" eyes are all different.

Denz FDC is a precise lens collimation instrument and gives you a true information about FFD and position of your mount towards that measure (52mm) and you can see it on your monitor.

"Instrument of evidence" like a Denz FDC never lies but your eyes can often do.

Just to give you a possible example where a guy is coming and telling that something is wrong with your RED (or whatever PL camera mount).

And with Denz FDC you can show him that your RED mount stays precisely at 52mm FFD.

Then it must be that a guy brought lens that is not properly collimated.

That's all folks.

 

[Robert Horwell]

Guys,

for sure THE NULL is very OK but relays just on your eyes and as we know well "our" eyes are all different.

Denz FDC is a precise lens collimation instrument and gives you a true information about FFD and position of your mount towards that measure (52mm) and you can see it on your monitor.

"Instrument of evidence" like a Denz FDC never lies but your eyes can often do.

Just to give you a possible example where a guy is coming and telling that something is wrong with your RED (or whatever PL camera mount).

And with Denz FDC you can show him that your RED mount stays precisely at 52mm FFD.

Then it must be that a guy brought lens that is not properly collimated.

That's all folks.

Sanjin,

All DP's, pullers, assistants have to rely on their eyes. Eyes too can be optically corrected, spectacles and contact lenses were the answer to that. When we have our eyes tested, we feedback based on what we perceive to be a soft or sharp image. When lenses are projected on an optical collimator we use our eyes to see if the chart is sharp, when it is sharp we go back to the lens and see if there is any adjustment needed. I would trust my eyes over most things. As Mitch and Stephen said, there more moving parts there are the more chance for the tool itself used for collimation needing to be collimated and seviced. The Red Null has no moving parts, none. I dont work for them by the way, but i do own one and use it. Do you own any of these tools in discussion?

Feel free to make some more rhetoric up or post links to websites, it means nothing, i know what i know from experience.:smash:

And that really is all folks

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

Sanjin,

All DP's, pullers, assistants have to rely on their eyes. Eyes too can be optically corrected, spectacles and contact lenses were the answer to that. When we have our eyes tested, we feedback based on what we perceive to be a soft or sharp image. When lenses are projected on an optical collimator we use our eyes to see if the chart is sharp, when it is sharp we go back to the lens and see if there is any adjustment needed. I would trust my eyes over most things. As Mitch and Stephen said, there more moving parts there are the more chance for the tool itself used for collimation needing to be collimated and seviced. The Red Null has no moving parts, none. I dont work for them by the way, but i do own one and use it. Do you own any of these tools in discussion?

Feel free to make some more rhetoric up or post links to websites, it means nothing, i know what i know from experience.:smash:

And that really is all folks

Robert,

I can collimate my RED1 using my eyes all the time and without THE NULL.

Everybody can do it if you know how.

But that's not a point to where I'm referring.

Just have a look at the pictures below and conclude yourself.

BTW, about DENZ-DENIZ: "The company Präzisions-Entwicklung Denz Fertigungs-GmbH was established in 1970 by Mr. Peter Denz, graduated Master in aircraftengineering."

LINK>>>

Also it is at neighborhood of P+S Technik in Ottobrunn/München suburb.

Folks, have a look carefully at the below pictures, it's all about NONIUS/Vernier scale: