RED One and Master Primes issues

[arrimaniac]

Hi all,

I am new here in the forum and I am looking forward to some nice and interesting discussions!

Last week I was at a rental house here in Germany where some guys tested the Red One with Master Primes.
When they tested the Red One outside with the Master Primes they noticed some problems with the scale of the lenses. When they focused on a subject that was about 10m away by looking on the on-board assistant monitor the scale of the lens was set on something about 10,50m!

It was okay with the lenses in the middle range of the scale but as closer as they did get to infinite it was worse...

The rental house was trying to correct the lens but was just able to correct it in the lower range or in the higher range but there was no way to correct it so the scale would be correct all the time...

The Red One I am talking about has the P&S Technik IMS Mount and not the original Red Mount, I don't know if this maybe has to do something with it.

Anyone knows this problem or has an idea why something like this could happen?


Looking forward to your answers!
Simon


PS: I am sorry if my english wasn't correct all the time. I try my best

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

Hi all,

I am new here in the forum and I am looking forward to some nice and interesting discussions!

Last week I was at a rental house here in Germany where some guys tested the Red One with Master Primes.
When they tested the Red One outside with the Master Primes they noticed some problems with the scale of the lenses. When they focused on a subject that was about 10m away by looking on the on-board assistant monitor the scale of the lens was set on something about 10,50m!

It was okay with the lenses in the middle range of the scale but as closer as they did get to infinite it was worse...

The rental house was trying to correct the lens but was just able to correct it in the lower range or in the higher range but there was no way to correct it so the scale would be correct all the time...

The Red One I am talking about has the P&S Technik IMS Mount and not the original Red Mount, I don't know if this maybe has to do something with it.

Anyone knows this problem or has an idea why something like this could happen?


Looking forward to your answers!
Simon


PS: I am sorry if my english wasn't correct all the time. I try my best

well ... sounds like a back-focus adjustment - or the lens was out. We have shot many, many times with Arri Masters Primes on the RED - including Doug Liman's last feature film FAIR GAME where the scale on the MPs was dead on.

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

Sent camera back to P+S Technik in München/Ottobrunn and they will factory colimate your mount to work perfect with MPs.

 

[jimhare]

Pawel has Master Primes and he doesn't seem to even look at the LCD when focusing. Just shoots the laser and dials it up on the MPs. Smack on every time! I'm pretty sure he said he didn't even have to adjust the back focus, it was dead on from the factory.

He can't resist a good MP chat so I'm sure he'll chime in soon! :001_tongue:

Jim :biggrinjester:

 

[Arthur Reinhart]

I am still investigating this issue but my suspicion is they are a bit different in the backfockus adjustment

http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=33218

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

Some of Arri high speed cameras PL mounts have FFD (Flange focal distance) at 51.97 mm.

Standard PL FFD is 52.00mm.

The difference obviously should be adjusted in the mount to "move back" (or shim mount to collimate and make it shorter FFD) exactly 00.03mm and then get the focus and lens scales to work right.

LINK>>>

 

[Fredrik Callinggard]

I own a set and have no problem with it what so ever.

Sounds more like a camera problem then a lens problem?

I think they need to check back focus on their camera. Have they tried other lenses without any problem?

 

[Stephen Williams]

MPs like all Carl Zeiss high speed PL lenses have FFD (Flange focal distance) at 51.97 mm.

Standard PL FFD is 52.00mm.

The difference obviously should be adjusted in the mount to "move back" (or collimate to make it shorter) exactly 00.03mm and then get the focus and lens scales to work right.

LINK>>>

Hi Sanjin,

You are missunderstanding, lenses are always 52mm exactly, many cameras will have a FFD nearer 51.97-98 so that the sharpest focus falls into the film.

Stephen

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

Hi Stephen,

Filmcentre page from UK wrote that:

"Arri PL "Positive Lock" (16/35) SR high speed models have FFD (Flange focal distance) at 51.97 mm".

 

[Douglas Underdahl]

Arri CAMERA flange focal distances vary, usually according to the type of pressure plate that is used. The IIC cams had a pressure plate that had a hollow black surface (in case anyone was shooting with older non-halation coated stock) and so the film was not pressed against the aperture plate as in the Arri 3 pressure plate, which is a row of vertical bars. So the flange focal depth of the IIc is shorter than the 3 or BL series to compensate. The 16SR HS has a shorter depth and different pressure plate than the standard 16SR cams due to it's high speed film handling capability.

I remember Panavision setting all their Arris (and they owned more of them than anyone, probably still do) at 52mm minus .001" which is about minus .025mm, which is also correct.

Lenses are set to dead 52mm - then the camera depths vary. The flange to ground glass or fiber screen is dead 52mm.

 

[Stephen Williams]

Hi Stephen,

Filmcentre page from UK wrote that:

"Arri PL "Positive Lock" (16/35) SR high speed models have FFD (Flange focal distance) at 51.97 mm".

Exactly, they are talking about high speed cameras, NOT LENSES.
The FFD of the Arri SR 16 is slightly different to the Arri SR 16 HS, that's what your link is referring to.

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

Above they said "Lens mounts >>Cine Mounts">>

maybe also RED's PL lens mount>>cine mount could be shimmed/adjusted/colimated at 51.97mm to get sharp focus sometimes for lenses like a MP,...

similar like on high speed cameras, standard speed cameras or whatever... BUT probably PST IMS mount has to be properly collimated at 52.00 on that RED at first.

 

[arrimaniac]

Thanks for all your answers!

I am still investigating this issue but my suspicion is they are a bit different in the backfockus adjustment

http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=33218

I also think it has something to do with the back focus adjustment of the camera or the IMS mount and not with the MS lenses.

Sent camera back to P+S Technik in München/Ottobrunn and they will factory colimate your mount to work perfect with MPs.

Hmmm... we don't want the mount to work perfect only with MPs, because there are other lenses as well, like UPs, S4 ans Zeiss HS you can rent the cam with.
Shouldn't the mount already been colimated to the standard 52mm? I mean that's also the reason why P&S allows you to replace the original mount with their mount by your own.

We tested all the lenses on the colimator and there they looked very good.

How can you colimate the RED One properly with the IMS mount? the normal method you use with your film cameras is not working because you would touch the sensor...
How could I do this?


Thanks!
Simon

 

[C.H.Haskell]

We have a set of Master Primes and in all my experience with them I would say its a back focus issues also. I had one of our bodies adjusted precisely for master primes and they match perfectly. Even the cooke S4s matched after this adjustment so I would look into that. Best of luck.

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

Thanks for all your answers!



I also think it has something to do with the back focus adjustment of the camera or the IMS mount and not with the MS lenses.



Hmmm... we don't want the mount to work perfect only with MPs, because there are other lenses as well, like UPs, S4 ans Zeiss HS you can rent the cam with.
Shouldn't the mount already been colimated to the standard 52mm? I mean that's also the reason why P&S allows you to replace the original mount with their mount by your own.

We tested all the lenses on the colimator and there they looked very good.

How can you colimate the RED One properly with the IMS mount? the normal method you use with your film cameras is not working because you would touch the sensor...
How could I do this?


Thanks!
Simon

Simon,

sent it to München/Ottobrunn and they will have a look at...

 

[Stephen Williams]

Above they said "Lens mounts >>Cine Mounts">>

maybe also RED's PL lens mount>>cine mount could be shimmed/adjusted/colimated at 51.97mm to get sharp focus sometimes for lenses like a MP,...

similar like on high speed cameras, standard speed cameras or whatever... BUT probably PST IMS mount has to be properly collimated at 52.00 on that RED at first.

Hi,

They are talking about the FDD for camera mounts. There is no mention anywhere about lenses. This is all very basic camera knowledge.

PL LENSES ARE ALWAYS SET TO 52.00 so they will work with EVERY camera if that camera has it's FFD set correctly to spec for THAT CAMERA.

Best

Stephen

EDIT Fast, Wide & sharp Master Prime lenses will show up errors on a camera that may not be noticeable with other lenses, if the camera works properly will Master Primes it will work well with other lenses if they are correctly shimmed and the mounts are CLEAN.

 

[Mitch Gross]

The P&S IMS mount has a way to adjust depth just like any other lens mount design. On the standard RED PL mount this is done with an adustable collar. A variant of this is the internal collar of the Birger mount. I believe the IMS mount uses shims like a traditional film camera mount. A good camera rental house should know how to adjust this using an optical collimation bench, provided they get the proper shims from P&S.

There is nothing wrong with the Master Primes. They work just fine on the RED and every other PL mount camera.

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

"Set of shims for IMS camera side mount:

Silver-clear - 0,015 mm / purple - 0,025 mm / pink - 0,04 mm / amber - 0,10 mm / messing -clear - 0,15 mm"

LINK>>>

 

[MichaelHalsell]

P+S Technik IMS Mount - Warrant issue

P+S Technik IMS Mount - Warrant issue

Does the P+S Technik IMS Mount void the warranty on the Red One, and will this effect the train-in value for the Epic

 

[Jean Wallez]

From P+S Technik site:


Important User Update

On 10-11-2008, 08:41 PM our Sales Manager for the IMS posted an official P+S TECHNIK statement in order to reach out directly to RED and their followers. This thread can be observed under the following lead: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=20338&highlight=technik.

Our aim in this action was to enter into talks with RED, as well as supporting the RED One users who found out the hard way that the warranty of the camera would be considered void and that the owners would be not given any upgrades. Sadly, this decision from RED was made without first allowing P+S Technik the chance to propose any possible solutions.

P+S Technik observed the hot discussion that evolved around our statement release. A direct response from our side to the developing thread, could have jeopardized the chances of P+S Technik finally meeting RED at the negotiation table.

Upon the opening of this thread, P+S got in direct contact with RED. P+S Technik assured RED that this issue could be solved with the aid and co-operation of both companies working together - aiming at finding a suitable solution for the RED and RED ONE users. Our Head of RnD (and Technical Oscar award winner, Mr. Dasser), was prepared to immediately fly over to the USA and meet up with the key development players and work out an immediate solution, but regrettably RED did not find this idea of any interest.

Days after this offer, RED announced the release of SCARLET and EPIC with an interchangeable lens device, very similar to our IMS. RED seems indeed to be the opinion, that this concept is quite useful and professional for the owners and users.

In good will, P+S Technik sent an email to RED congratulating them on the new series. Not forgetting those “free willed” RED users that wanted to use the P+S Technik IMS, we also asked RED about a certification for our IMS but unfortunately did not receive any response.

At this time, we would like to thank those owners, who are taking the risk, of using IMS for RED One. For those, who have lost their warranty and their upgrade option by announcing the use of our product in free and public speech, we can only say that we are sorry to have let you down in not being able to get RED to work together with us in the interest of their own clients. P+S tried to save your warranty and upgrade option but ended up unanswered.

The industry’s shout was heard and managed to overwhelm a monopolist policy and opened the markets for open standards like the IMS.

With regret P+S TECHNIK silently observes how the ‘Rebellion’ uses ‘imperial’ behaviour hooking customers to the goodwill of RED using proprietary products.

Nevertheless, Jim Jannard is welcome to visit our booth at NAB 2009 to talk to our Head of RnD and offer a solution for the users and owners of the RED One.