Welcome to our community

Be a part of something great, join today!

Log in
  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

RED ONE 3K vs. Scarlet 3K

J

Joel Kaye

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 4, 2007
Messages
2,962
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Anyone know if there's a difference in FOV, DOF, pixel size / noise / real resolution etc. between RED's 3K mode and what Scarlet will be?

Or is Scarlet actually going to be superior to RED in 3K mode when it's released due to it's new sensor technology? (we know RED's sensor will be upgradable...)
 
If the Scarlet has a 3K 2/3" sensor, then it will have a little more depth of field than 3K on the RED's 35mm sensor.

Basically 3K on a 4K 35mm sensor (24mm wide) is somewhere around 18mm wide, whereas a 2/3" sensor is 9.58mm wide.

So 3K on the RED ONE is the equivalent of an extra 1.33-stops of depth of field once you match FOV and distance with the camera in 4K mode... compared to the 2.5-stops extra depth of field with a 2/3" sensor compared to a 35mm sensor.

My guess, unless there are some significant improvements with the Scarlet sensor compared to the RED sensor, is that, in theory, 3K on the RED ONE should look "better" in terms of noise and even resolution because with a smaller sensor, you are cramming more photosites into the same area (and thus more heat problems and perhaps less sensitivity) plus your lens has to have better MTF characteristics to get sharp focus on a smaller target area.
 
David Mullen ASC said:
If the Scarlet has a 3K 2/3" sensor, then it will have a little more depth of field than 3K on the RED's 35mm sensor.

Basically 3K on a 4K 35mm sensor (24mm wide) is somewhere around 18mm wide, whereas a 2/3" sensor is 9.58mm wide.

So 3K on the RED ONE is the equivalent of an extra 1.33-stops of depth of field once you match FOV and distance with the camera in 4K mode... compared to the 2.5-stops extra depth of field with a 2/3" sensor compared to a 35mm sensor.

My guess, unless there are some significant improvements with the Scarlet sensor compared to the RED sensor, is that, in theory, 3K on the RED ONE should look "better".
Click to expand...

Thanks. Ok - so if I'm reading this correctly Scarlet would also have a much tighter FOV (18mm vs. 9.58mm?). RED will be preferable to shooters who prefer wider angle looks. Am I understanding that properly?
 
joelnet said:
Thanks. Ok - so if I'm reading this correctly Scarlet would also have a much tighter FOV (18mm vs. 9.58mm?). RED should perform better with wider angle lenses. Am I understanding that properly?
Click to expand...

Yeah, the Red One's image will look much wider at the same focal length. But it's easier to make wider angle lenses for smaller format sensors. The Scarlet's fixed lens will probably start at 8 or 10mm. That's not at all unusual for, say, Super 16 zooms.
 
Technically, if the basic RED ONE zooms start at 18mm for a 4K full-sensor image, you'd have to make the Scarlet zoom start at 7.2mm for the same FOV. So maybe it will be a 7mm-70mm 10X zoom or a 7mm-105mm 15X zoom (they didn't announce any specs for the Scarlet lens yet?) Trouble is that it is very hard to make a 15X zoom that doesn't breathe like hell and keep it small. They'd have more luck with a 10X zoom in that regards.
 
But isn't the "2.5-stops extra depth of field" quite a lot (not "a little" ;-)?

If the most open iris is at f 2.8 (and that's on the widest FOV I suppose), you will have a quite long DOF, compared to shoot with a fast lens on the 4K sensor.

And I think Scarlet will do aprox. 1 stop shorter DOF then shot on a 1/3" camera.

Fast and easy to shoot with though.
 
Jonas Nyström said:
And I think Scarlet will do aprox. 1 stop shorter DOF then shot on a 1/3" camera.
Click to expand...

I believe a sensor that is twice as large (2/3" instead of 1/3") has a 2-stop difference in depth of field once you match FOV and distance, just as 16mm has a 2-stop difference compared to 35mm, and 2K "cropped" versus 4K. I'm assuming that a 1/3" sensor is approx. 4.79mm wide instead of 9.58mm wide, which is the horizontal dimension of a 2/3" sensor -- I could be wrong on that though.

You see 35mm material shot at a f/5.8 to f/8 all the time in day exterior work (and some day interior work shot under HMI lighting) so 2/3" photography shot at f/2.8 would have those depth of field characteristics. It would just be deeper in focus than the typical 35mm night interior and exterior photography typically shot at f/2.8. But sometimes that little depth of field is quite a struggle to deal with when shooting tight on an actor who is moving around. I've done many features with decent professional focus-pullers who have problems following moving actors in ECU's at an f/2.8 -- the focus is quite shallow at that point, almost "swimmy". Pretty looking when you nail the focus, but annoying when you miss it. Look at a typical 35mm feature on the big screen or HDTV and you'll see quite a number of missed-focus shots, and that's after the editing is finished and a lot of the bad shots were trimmed out.

I'm shooting a night-heavy feature right now in 35mm and many times I wish I could get more depth of field. We've even had to resort to split-diopter filters a couple of times to hold the foreground and background in focus for certain moments.
 
David Mullen ASC said:
I'm shooting a night-heavy feature right now in 35mm and many times I wish I could get more depth of field. We've even had to resort to split-diopter filters a couple of times to hold the foreground and background in focus for certain moments.
Click to expand...

Speaking of a split diopter filter, there's a shot in the trailer for RED CANVAS (http://www.hollywooddi.com/red/redcanvas.html) that had me puzzled; I guess a split diopter explains it??? Child in foreground playing a video game is sharp; blanket on his lap and middle-ground wall behind him are out of focus; and yet the background characters in the other room through the doorway are more or less in focus. Beautiful shot.
 
David Mullen ASC said:
I believe a sensor that is twice as large (2/3" instead of 1/3") has a 2-stop difference in depth of field once you match FOV and distance, just as 16mm has a 2-stop difference compared to 35mm, and 2K "cropped" versus 4K. I'm assuming that a 1/3" sensor is approx. 4.79mm wide instead of 9.58mm wide, which is the horizontal dimension of a 2/3" sensor -- I could be wrong on that though.
Click to expand...

I was wrong and you are quite right about the stops and sizes! / J
 
David Mullen ASC said:
Technically, if the basic RED ONE zooms start at 18mm for a 4K full-sensor image, you'd have to make the Scarlet zoom start at 7.2mm for the same FOV. So maybe it will be a 7mm-70mm 10X zoom or a 7mm-105mm 15X zoom (they didn't announce any specs for the Scarlet lens yet?) Trouble is that it is very hard to make a 15X zoom that doesn't breathe like hell and keep it small. They'd have more luck with a 10X zoom in that regards.
Click to expand...

Given these numbers, and the official specifications that the lens is a fixed 8x zoom, what would be the most likely focal length for this camera in 35mm terms? Given that you start at the widest possible staring point.

7 - 56 equals X - X in 35mm terms (or are those converted already?
 
So, I guess, if there was a 7 - 56 lens on the Scarlet, it would be equal to about a 10 - 80 mm on a S 16 or Red 2K cropped? If that's the case, with a 2X converter and a .6 wide you'd have the equivalent to 6mm to 160mm in S 16 terms, I think. That's pretty good.
 
xaxa said:
this is s35, right? In SLR terms it would be 28 to 224, correct?

David: Red talked about a T2.8 lens. Are you able to estimate what F-Stop this would equal? How much light is lost in such a lens?
Click to expand...

If the lens is marked in T-stops, then T/2.8 is a real f/2.8 in exposure. The maximum f-stop would probably be something like f/2.4, f/2.2... I don't know really. I often see around a 1/4-stop difference between a T/stop and an f/stop in a lot of lenses, not significant really, but it can become an issue when using multiple cameras and multiple lenses, not knowing how well they match each other in exposure when set to the same f-stop.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top