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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Red not true 4k

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The thing I find funny about people that think "it's not 4k" is a huge revelation is that their basically saying, "Hey, they say it's 4x the resolution of a genesis, but really it's only twice the res! RED's ripping you off!"

...yeah...
 
Daniel, if you're going to lob grenades, you better be prepared to take the incoming flak for your remarks. Your obvious attempt was to make a stand based upon a biased opinion from a source who was obviously taking pot shots to debunk the radical popularity of the Red camera. What could possibly be the purpose of the statement "Red is not true 4K" other than to make some derogatory slam against the camera? Was that an attempt to awaken all of us minions to the reality that what we're dealing with is a lie? Wow, thanks for the update. Film at eleven.
 
Daniel S Williams said:
"Everything else, past a certain extent is superfluous."

Not true, especially if you're supervising post production on a RED production. You need to understand the camera back to front. You need to know the output, the relationship between photosite and pixel
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Yes, you do.

You need to know what you can measure. If you're a Post Supervisor and you don't insist on practical, real world testing and instead you rely on what the manufacturers are telling you... well... then you get what you deserve.

I have worked on hundreds of productions in a workflow and Post Supe advisory capacity for Genesis, RED, 35mm, 16mm, Dalsa, F900, Varicam, etc, etc. You name the camera, I've probably touched it somehow in designing post workflows.

In every single one, when a new camera was being used, everybody read what the manufacturer said, then said, "gee, isn't that great." Then threw away the manufacturer's notes, and put it on a test rig in a controlled setting with focus and resolution, and colorimetry charts.

That is how you determine resolution - not by posting competitive commentary and labeling it as fact.

Lucas
 
Mark Phelan said:
What could possibly be the purpose of the statement "Red is not true 4K" other than to make some derogatory slam against the camera? Was that an attempt to awaken all of us minions to the reality that what we're dealing with is a lie?
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or even the idea that because you read an article, you now know more about the camera and the sensor than the people than work with the camera and footage everyday. Kinda silly.

Anyway, no one's kicking you out of the community, you're welcome to participate, but you can't think that this thread wasn't going to start an argument. You indeed brought some information that could have been important to this community, but as one might expect, we were already aware of that information and don't consider it very important.
 
luki said:
When a new camera was being used, everybody read what the manufacturer said, then said, "gee, isn't that great." Then threw away the manufacturer's notes, and put it on a test rig in a controlled setting with focus and resolution, and colorimetry charts.
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Just wondering if you could leak any of those tests..... :shiftyph34r:
 
Lucas and David, again and as usual, thanks for inserting common sense into an argument that I think demonstrates that some people have certain fixations and like proofs and contentiousness.

Marketing always involves reductionist buzz words, sloganeering, a kind of techno priesthood.

One thing I don't want on my gravestone is : He truly cared whether it was actually 4K...

Anyway, I am impressed by the passion of the contenders if not always the ultimate point of the arguments. Carry on in good grace and good humor.
 
But specs are important.
Knowing how the camera works from the inside out.

I'm not just going to look at the screen and go "hm that looks good"
Because I'm not stupid.

I want to know what I'm looking at. And how it works, what makes it tick.

And I simply brought up the point that Red advertises their camera as 4k, and producers get on me about it, when really it's all marketing. Like saying the hvx200 is true 1080p ect
 
This thread is fun for me. I don't care about being offended. It's a sporty debate. No one should get so upset over a camera.
 
Brandon said:
or even the idea that because you read an article, you now know more about the camera and the sensor than the people than work with the camera and footage everyday. Kinda silly.
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Never said I did. LOL. You guys are hilarious.
 
Isn't an HVX's pixel shifting the same as a bayer patern?

Same principle. Offset sampling to reconstruct an image.

I think it's completely fair to compare HVX "1080p" and Red "4k".

Red is what it is. But saying "no pixel offsetting or games spoken of here" is really pretty borderline hypocritical.
 
Gavin Greenwalt said:
Isn't an HVX's pixel shifting the same as a bayer patern?

Same principle. Offset sampling to reconstruct an image.

I think it's completely fair to compare HVX "1080p" and Red "4k".

Red is what it is. But saying "no pixel offsetting or games spoken of here" is really pretty borderline hypocritical.
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I see someone is finally not a red fanboy.
 
Specs are one thing, real life performance is the best way to understand the value of any system...It seems like the RED One is doing very well....better than expected by many.....

I like it and my clients like it also, that's what matters to me!

This camera is much closer to 4k than 3k.......and has changed the industry!

Edit: I'm a Fanboy of systems that work at a great price point!!!

Dave
 
Ultimately a motion picture camera, which is designed to create images for entertainment should be judged by how the final images look upon viewing. Those with a critical eye, experienced to judge can compare side by side with 35mm or even IMAX, various camera such as Genesis, SI 2K, and RED. Of course there will be subjectivity involved but (agreeing with Luki) what does it really matter what the technical differences are, if the images look phenomenal in the end. I'm sure both the Genesis and RED have put out amazing pictures.

Its like comparing a Ferrari and a Lamborhghini on technical specs. One may achieve 350hp, the other 400hp. But how does it feel to drive them? And in the end did you get where you wanted to go?

Equally important then should be the discussion of the operator/user experience and post workflow.
 
Gavin, If we'd kept silent when people asked if we're using a bayer sensor, I could understand your "hypocritical" comment. If people had repeatedly asked us how many pixels are on our sensors and we kept our mouths closed, again, I could understand. But no, right from the start, I have stated, as have we stated officially the exact pixel count and that the sensor is a Bayer pattern colour filter array.

Graeme
 
Personally I want a really badass 2k camera with 15 stops of latitude and a global sensor. I would prefer that to an 8k camera.

As soon as you add any dof and motion blur 98% of your frame could be 2k and nobody would tell the difference.
 
I agree graeme. You've ben very open and very communicative about the features of your product. I just meant that line taken on its own has always smelled a bit fowl.

"Kettle Pot Black" and all that.

And I would be very interested in a discussion between the competitive merits of pixel offset and bayer pattern. How do the two compare with efficiency?
 
David Mullen ASC said:
The camera has a 4K sensor.

So what other frame of reference is there? Is there a 3-sensor camera out there, 4K per sensor?
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Actually, the Viper has 3 sensors, each of which is 9.2 megapixels. That would seem to come pretty close.
 
Ok actually Graeme I'm going to take that back. If we're talking "Marketing" then Red isn't completly up front. Yes they say 12mp but who can do 4k RGB to megapixel conversion in their head?

Now anyone who is planning on spending 24k on a camera should probably do some good research at which point they will certainly ascertain the details of the mysterium chip. But it's even called the "Mysterium" chip. :D

Show me where on Red.com you use the word "Bayer".

"Pixel shifting not spoken here." No you need to go to Reduser.net and speak about pixel shifting and bayer patterns. ;)
 
I just got few words to say, not matter is it 4K or not,
just bare in your mind, what will be the final resolution you looking for,
how much moneys you spent on kind of great camera design from RED,
ask yourself then post the question.

Cheers
Dop - Mainland China & Hong Kong

Perry Ho
 
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