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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Red Noise

Question for the RED team: there has been some talk about a stand-by mode implementation (please now!). Would that mean it is possible in the future to let the camera cool down in between takes without powering it down completely? Or even better: have it in a monitor-mode when not recording and saving power and heat?
 
I'm still waiting for my RED #694.

Be honest I never had an idea that I would use RED camera for recording sound.

For me RED is a digital replacement for ol' film 35mm camera.

So I always had a classic approach about recording and monitoring sound at location

that is totally separate from the cam's visual recording.

If it's too much noise for recording dialog(s) on set,

then do dialog(s) recording later in a studio.

And I cannot address this camera sound "NOISE" as an issue.

The most film cameras produce more sound noise on set then RED.

Also for me sound is about how Waler Murch is observing it.

It's not all about recording, it's more about mixing in post and

even more how it is related with overall film structure.

READ MORE>>>
 
Sanjin, I completely disagree. Even if you are recording double system sound, you cannot have a camera that takes over the noise floor of the recording. Actually, if it's a consistent noise, then sure you can remove it in post, adding more money to the post budget. But you should never go into a project thinking ALL of the dialogue will be recreated later on. You'll be asking for trouble because some of your performances from the production tracks might be lost and you may never be able to recreate them the way they were done on set.

Again, I will do tests soon and see what the real world situation is. If it is a major problem I will work with Red to see what can be done. If it is not a problem, or is only a problem in certain situations I will document this so there is a reference point for people.
 
Well, being a sound recordist I don't think I will comment on Sanjin's post.

Does anybody actually have constructive suggestions what we can do about this problem, as a short term solution or through hardware upgrades?

Georg
 
Don't recommend a solution that you very apparently know little to nothing about (your reading knowledge is very different and not as useful as real world knowledge for people who need real solutions). As you said, it's not even a concern to you, and yet for some strange reason you feel your opinion matters and your advice is helpful. And I love your euphemistic use of "classic approach".

The Third Man said:
I'm still waiting for my RED #694.

Be honest I never had an idea that I would use RED camera for recording sound.

For me RED is a digital replacement for ol' film 35mm camera.

So I always had a classic approach about recording and monitoring sound at location

READ MORE>>>
Click to expand...

Steve, I am very interested in your tests and possible solutions. I've read mixed experiences with sound... some don't find it a problem and some do. I can't tell if it's due to user needs/experience/error or the Red Camera.
 
Georg Misch said:
Well, being a sound recordist I don't think I will comment on Sanjin's post.
Click to expand...

Many different film and video production crew "Supermen"

founding daily more and more RED "issues".

But the main facts are that there are no big "issues" with RED

and even if there some small "bugs" other experienced

people are solving them daily very easily.

And that RED production results are presented at the page

Shot on RED
 
RED Blimp

RED Blimp

I know that REDONE needs to breathe to be able to cool down. But wouldn't it be possible to blimp the camera in a way that it lets the air flow in the bellow part of the body. Noise would be cut off next to, in front of and above the camera. Leaving space only underneath the body (where tripod/shoulder would be) would still let the cam cool down and diminish mostly all that noise.

In film shooting I remember sound guy arguing for me to put a clear in front of the lens :-( to get rid of the shutter noise coming through the lens/mattebox.

I do believe that we shouldn't do any postproduction filtering to get a clear sound, but a continuous fan is easyer to filter out than a shutter noise (even if there exist special built filter for 24fps).

I would probably build a leather Blimp instead of not shooting with REDONE.

Now It's time for the sound engeneer to GET TO WORK and invent an accessory!!!:weight_lift:

See you.

Patrick
 
Please post audio

Please post audio

This thread has been very disheartening to me- for my work I can't have a camera that's horribly loud. In fact, for some of my work the noise of a hard drive is unacceptable (which is why I like Red's CF module).

If Red One's noise problems can't be fixed... then I'll have to cancel my order.

Since all many of us can do is read about this issue, I'd really love it if some Red One owners could post some clips. It'd help me make my decision, at least.
 
Blablabla. Sanjin have u tested the camera? Do u have any experience?
I have both and I can tell u there are still issues.
I hate microphones as much as any DP , but you must be either stupid or very hard at hearing not to appreciate the importance of recording and using/mixing 100% sound ,when you are watching the feature you shot(or most likely not) up there on the screen at the premiere.
The other kind of noise issue is a whole other and much more pressing issue. At least for a DP
 
The general impression that i'm gathering from various threads is that there is noise, but it's tolerable to the people who compare it to real world working conditions of other cameras and know how to deal with it. So I get a more positive impression from them.

But I'm trying to differentiate stories that are balanced by real world, working sensibilities and stories of someone standing by the fan in a quiet environment and hearing how much "noise" they hear and thinking it's "loud".

Sort of like image noise. Some people are complaining because they're staring at pixels and see "noise" in the shadows of a single still frame capture; but in a real world viewing situation of a moving image, the noise isn't ugly or distracting and the audience should be wrapped up in the story and not notice the noise.

Of course, some people have higher requirements for noise levels for their projects. I'm thinking of terms in capturing actor's performances.

So on a narrative film, a shotgun with the camera at a certain distance poses little problem? But maybe in situations where the camera is closer, there might be some pickup of the fan noise?

Sanjin made his noise levels clear. He just wants a souped up DSLR. What are others needs? What kind of projects are you shooting that the noise level is acceptable or not?

By the way, Sanjin. If I came off rude or harsh, I apologize. I normally don't like to rag on people, etc. Your other posts are interesting and informative. But I really would like to get real world solutions. It would be great for Red to have a fix for everything, but it's unfair to them as other cameras make sound and those issues are just dealt with in production.
 
There are many common solutions to get rid of noise like some of those quoted below:



First WARNING:

Don’t expect Pro Tools or any other sound app to be able to get rid of all types of noises.

It can get rid of certain sounds, attenuate others, but sometimes this attenuation comes at the

expense of the quality of your production audio. Loud AC, generator noise, traffic,


is almost impossible to get rid of. If you have some these types of noises, and you


care about what your film sounds like, we suggest ADR.


The two tools you can use to reduce noise are an EQ plugin and/or a Noise Reduction plugin.


Though Noise Reduction can be the most effective tool to get rid of noise,

it uses up a lot of computer processing power.

We therefore recommend that you first try to EQ your sound.


Hiss

Use the Low Pass filter and begin rolling off the highs by dragging the slider

to the left until you hear an attenuation of the hiss.

Make sure it does not adversily affect your dialogue.

If it does, you should back off on the roll off.

If you are not satisfied with the effects of the filter on the hiss,

you might want to try one of the

Noise Reduction plugins

Bassy Noise (ie., Traffic)

Use the High Pass filter and begin rolling off the lows by dragging the slider

to the right until you hear an attenuation of the hiss.

Make sure it does not adversily affect your dialogue.

If it does, you should back off on the roll off.

If you are not satisfied with the effects of the filter on the bass,

you might want to try one of the

Noise Reduction plugins


Camera Noise, Hum or Buzz

Use the Notch Filter.

Drag the “notch” by dragging on the slider back and forth until you hear the

greatest reduction in the noise.

The wider the “Q” on the “notch”, the broader the reduction will be,

and the more likely you will affect the quality of your dialogue.

So once you are satisfied that you have achieved the best noise
reduction with the “notch”,

check to make sure it does not affect your dialogue too much.

If it does, try reducing the size of the notch by raising the “Q”.

If you are not satisfied with the notch, try Noise Reduction.

Also

In filmmaking, dubbing or looping is the process of recording or replacing voices for a motion picture.

ADR - Automated dialogue recording / post-sync.

And one more thing:

Somebody told me that his girlfriend is a beautiful and a nice woman,

but has one big "issue" that she is so loud in a bed (means in sex)

that this is almost "unacceptable' from my...blah blah blah.

So there are two solutions:

1. You can leave your girlfriend because of that 'issue'.

2. You can stay with her and try out to deal with that "issue" as a better as you can.


MORE>>>
 
We are shooting tomorrow our fourth production on Red and there are some more upcoming the next weeks and had time to play with. Sound Noise of the camera is in a quiet scene definitely an issue specially when you are close to the actor, and for sure Red is louder than some 35 or 16mm cams. There are some Arris out which you can't hear.
And yes there are some issues regarding the cam and specially the post workflow. But we know we are working on a system which is still in development and at this day beta. Red is reading this forum and hopefully addressing all our needs.
 
If you cannot tolerate that camera noise then you could shoot from a distance

with telephoto (starting from 75mm to 300mm for example).

That how Michael Ballhaus shooting from Fassbinder's films to Scorsese's "Departed".

You don't need a macro lens to get closer to the actor.

Then you have enough "silent" space to get your audio with a bit less camera noise.

I did not say WITHOUT noise.

Silent doesn't exsit.

Be aware that always exists a certain noise but with many different "flour" levels.
 
After reading a recent post from Jim and being reminded about what we all know (that Red has shot and is shooting features successfully), I think I'm not going to worry about it anymore. IF there is a problem, it'll get resolved, by Red or myself or help from someone here on the forum. I'm going to have to start cutting down on my thread involvement... it's becoming a waste of time! :)
 
The Third Man said:
If you cannot tolerate that camera noise then you could shoot from a distance with telephoto (starting from 75mm to 300mm for example).

That how Michael Ballhaus shooting from Fassbinder's films to Scorsese's "Departed".

You don't need a macro lens to get closer to the actor.

Then you have enough "silent" space to get your audio with a bit less camera noise.

I did not say WITHOUT noise.

Silent doesn't exsit.

Be aware that always exists a certain noise but only with different levels.
Click to expand...

Sanjin, you write a load of crap in this thread.
Have you been drinking again?

Camera noise IS an issue, definitely.
 
Jing, it's not a complete waste of time. There are people on here who have cameras, are doing testing, and have good intentions of reporting back to the community with results, so those who are still waiting for cameras or still on the fence can have some good information to base their decisions on. I know it can get furstrating at times, but think about the positives.

Sanjin. In all due respect, you have some book smarts on sound issues, but until you deal with them on a first hand basis, it's hard to appreciate the complexity involved. Very few directors go in thinking they will want to replace the dialogue later on. It's only the result of bad sound recording due to uncontrollable circumstances, technical glitches, or a bad performance. They will almost always want to use the production sound, some even going as far as spending loads of money to try every known process of cleaning up tracks. Having said that, if you have a different method, then you are entitled to that. I don't have a problem with it. But most of us will be concerned if the camera is louder than what we consider acceptable.

Blimping this camera seems like it could be a problem in a very warm room unless you can really assure you have enough ventllation, otherwise I see potential for corrupt files, cameras shutting down, etc. But if someone is able to design one specifically for the Red, I'll be buying one.

I should have my camera up and running next week (lens support is in Friday) Actually maybe even sooner if I rent some primes this weekend. I will make this my very first test. I'll have an SPL meter handy, and I will run some mic tests from various distances from the camera, with different noise floors. Some quiet room interviews, some noisy office, and an exterior scene. Maybe even a car scene. I'll also have a lav mic running so people can see what their fallback mic would sound like.

As to changing your focal length to accomodate the sound - doubt that's going to happen. And it shouldn't be that way. DP should be able to set up the shot the way he wants and then work with sound to deal with normal issues. But I can't imagine most DPs will be happy if they are told they have to change the camera's position because the camera is too loud.
 
Finner said:
How could I have been so dumb. Of course it will get fixed. With unrefutable facts like "The gears are grinding very VERY loudly right now." I must have been crazy not to think this would not end with a major recall of 1,000+ cameras to replace the fans.
Click to expand...


Sometimes I wonder if you like to actually give any useful input, or you are simply looking to prove yourself right in the most inopportune times.


Either way, good luck.
 
RED's noise is directly related to environmental temperature. In a warm environment the fans will be on constantly at the highest speed, even when recording. You can compare it to a desktop computer with loud fans.

Another concern for me is that in my experience fans become more noisier when they age, so the problem will actually get worse over time.

Over here in Thailand it IS going to be a problem and I will have to look for a solution to cool down the camera externally for those shots where sound is a problem.
 
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