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Red Noise

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Georg Misch

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Hi!

We received RED #512 last week. It is a revolutionary camera and we are very impressed with it.

However, the camera is much more noisy than expected. What follows is not a rant but an attempt to describe the problem and to look for solutions for this issue. I know this has been talked about before, but there seem to be no solutions and I think it is worthy to discuss it again.

We played with all different fan settings and while "Auto" seems best it is still way too much. For shooting of quiet interiors, close to a subject, the noise from the camera is unacceptable. It is definetly louder than any other camera I have worked with before: Aaton XTR's, SR2's, 900er Sony Cinealta etc. The main problem is that in contrast to a film camera, you cannot blimp the RED because it needs the airflow through the vents at the bottom.

In addition, the noise it emits is not just the low growl of film cameras but a higher pitched whine, which changes pitch. This is near-impossible to filter in post and a real problem. In the opinion of the very experienced soundrecordists that I work with, it makes the camera unusable for sync sound in quiet interiors and close up shots. At the least you would have to make serious compromises in the sound.

I mentioned this to Jon and a couple of other people at RED at last weeks RED day. Jon acknowledged that the camera is noisy and mentioned that a different kind of fan might possibly improve this issue, which could be retro-fittet. However, this means in no way that this is really possible or that RED is going to do this.

Another solution in the meantime could be a barney with built-in cooling packs that allows the air to enter and exit at the back of the camera. We have tried some crude mockups of this and it would improve noise levels somewhat but not enough.

Yet another solution might be the addition of a super-quiet mode, that runs the fans even slower than in the so-called "Silent" or "Auto" mode but can only be used in combination with cooling packs.

On the weekend I will try to set up a real world shooting situation and will post a sound clip with the different fan modes so that everybody can hear for themselves.

Other than that, the camera is simply amazing and I very much hope that we can find a solution for this problem.

Georg

www.mischief-films.com
RED #512
 
When I first started reading this post I thought you were talking about noise in the actual image. You may want to relabel this post as Red Fan Noise. :)

I don't have my camera yet, but I can see how loud fan noise can be a problem.
 
are you using build 14 ? it is suppose to have a fan mode that when you hit record the fan shuts off ...
in build 13 quiet mode is full fan in stand by and 10% fan when you record ...
a soundman took Red 103 for a little audio thing .. he thought that quiet mode was the best for audio because the fan was constant when you hit record - it would be easier to remove in post ..while variable it was not constant and would be difficult to remove in post ...
again under build 14 there is suppose to be a Fan off when you hit record ...
i don't have 14 loaded so i can't tell you the exact label they use for it ..
 
What you are referring to is Auto, which is the same as Variable (ramping rpm's in conjunction with camera temp.) however Auto will slow fan speed to lowest setting during record while Variable will continue to ramp rpm's accordingly while recording
 
Stupid question...but...are you sure the unacceptable fan noise continues even when you hit the record button? The fan should run noisy and fast to keep the circuits cool while you're not filming but as soon as you hit record it should drop to super quiet. What are you recording onto - Compact Flash or RedDrive?
 
Justin_Kirch said:
When I first started reading this post I thought you were talking about noise in the actual image. You may want to relabel this post as Red Fan Noise. :)

I don't have my camera yet, but I can see how loud fan noise can be a problem.
Click to expand...

Wow, me too.

"Noise" here isn't what it used to be. :)
 
davecw said:
Stupid question...but...are you sure the unacceptable fan noise continues even when you hit the record button? The fan should run noisy and fast to keep the circuits cool while you're not filming but as soon as you hit record it should drop to super quiet. What are you recording onto - Compact Flash or RedDrive?
Click to expand...

I've tried this with CF and RedDrive. It does go comparatively quiet during record, but is still way noiser than any camera I've ever been near. When the camera's close to the subject, I'm sure this will pick-up. Proper tests are being done next week. I probably wouldn't have noticed the noise, but my sound-recordist has changed my perception about all noise, recently. I know that when he gets in the same room as our beloved camera, he won't love it as much as we do.
 
Well, if I can ever get a lens support part that I need, I'll be finally booting my camera up and doing some tests. But know this. I have done location sound recording for various levels of production up through feature film, and I've done audio post for a number of years. The only reason that is important to this community is that I will be paying very close attention to how noisy this camera is during various shooting conditions. I will have test results up on my blog probably in the next couple of weeks. I like clean audio tracks, so I will be as critical as it gets. But if Red passes those tests with flying colors, I will be happy to report that as well.
 
Be sure to check if your camera has winter strips installed. The air vents on the CF side are removable and there should not be anything attached to it on the back side. RED has stated it hasn't been shipping cameras with winter strips for a long time but mine had so there might be other cameras out there with winter strips.

See this thread.

Regardless of that, the camera still gets hot and the fan makes a lot of noise. I am thinking it might be possible to attach a quiet 12 volt fan like they are used in computers and point it at the top of the camera. I did a small test with a USB fan and that already worked well cooling the camera but it also added its own noise.
 
"RED" The Fire Breathing Camera

"RED" The Fire Breathing Camera

sander kamp said:
Be sure to check if your camera has winter strips installed.
Click to expand...

No, there are no winter strips in the camera and I am using build 14. I tried all modes, yes with "silent" the fans are quieter during record but still clearly audible in the sound.

I went to Coffey Sound in LA this afternoon and talked to one of their staff who has been doing sound on a RED shoot just a few days ago: He also thought that the camera was one of the noisiest he's ever worked with and that they had real problems with the sound. On RAMPS there was a post entitled "RED-The Fire Breathing Camera" with similar reports about the noisy fans.

Sorry about the misleading title. But it's good if it attracts attention to this different kind of noise, too. There are de-noising algorithms for image noise in Redcine now, but we need to de-noise the camera itself as well...

Georg
 
Wow. I can hear it right now. Faintly, I can hear it. It sounds like the gears of a newly created machine turning. It's rough at first but this machine is going to grind through the gears until it gets nice and smooth. The RED Team are obviously this machine, and they are obviously already taking action on this.
 
Nathan Buxton said:
Wow. I can hear it right now. Faintly, I can hear it. It sounds like the gears of a newly created machine turning. It's rough at first but this machine is going to grind through the gears until it gets nice and smooth. The RED Team are obviously this machine, and they are obviously already taking action on this.
Click to expand...

This must be true, because red took action when asked for full size XLR's, audio pots, limiters and the ability to record more then 1 line into a single input. Oh wait that's right red did not fix any of these issues when heartly requested. Red has shown that audio is the bottom of the barrel when it comes to importance. I don't see why this audio issue will be treated any different. Great MOS camera though.
 
I wonder if liquid cooling might be a solution.

Really high-end gaming PCs use it.
 
Finner said:
This must be true, because red took action when asked for full size XLR's, audio pots, limiters and the ability to record more then 1 line into a single input. Oh wait that's right red did not fix any of these issues when heartly requested. Red has shown that audio is the bottom of the barrel when it comes to importance. I don't see why this audio issue will be treated any different. Great MOS camera though.
Click to expand...

Not to be argumentative or to be negative at all, but I politely retort.

Audio is currently not up to the standards that RED is clearly ultimately aiming for.

They have many other aspects of this whole system that are not up to the standards of the RED Team.

The gears are grinding very VERY loudly right now.

Give them time to get through the cycles and you'll find all this irritating noise will go away.
 
Tom said:
I wonder if liquid cooling might be a solution.

Really high-end gaming PCs use it.
Click to expand...

you have found the solution absolutely. Unless it's considered "too risky" I don't see why it isn't a perfect OPTION. Many computers work flawlessly this way.

*edit* well maybe not so perfect considering there are pumps involved....
 
Nathan Buxton said:
Not to be argumentative or to be negative at all, but I politely retort.

Audio is currently not up to the standards that RED is clearly ultimately aiming for.

They have many other aspects of this whole system that are not up to the standards of the RED Team.

The gears are grinding very VERY loudly right now.

Give them time to get through the cycles and you'll find all this irritating noise will go away.
Click to expand...


How could I have been so dumb. Of course it will get fixed. With unrefutable facts like "The gears are grinding very VERY loudly right now." I must have been crazy not to think this would not end with a major recall of 1,000+ cameras to replace the fans.
 
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