Red needs a "Post" guy

[Bruce Allen]

I should add that of course, Apple should be one making the tutorials on how to work with Red footage in FCP.

But they have a nice monopoly with no competition so they are sitting on their ass and letting Red do all the hard work.

Assimilate seem to be supporting their paying customers, only problem is this puts DIY'er people who can't afford Scratch out of luck.

Red is doing an admirable job, just trying to cover an impossible spectrum of requests. I say you guys should stop covering Apple's ass and tell them you are going to open up the format right now unless they start pulling their end of whatever bargain it is that was struck and make some workflow tutorials etc.

Similarly, RedCine is still not quite there yet - the lack of conform tools makes it not useful for a lot of stuff, and it is still too flaky.

I don't know how much of it is written in-house by Red, how much by Assimilate and how much is a joint effort, but similarly I think Red needs to reassess its deal and figure out what needs to be done to get an excellent workflow going.

I think everyone Red has hired are amazing and have had the privilege of meeting some of them personally. Quality of staff is definitely not the problem. You guys are amazing!

However things like the continued lack of a Windows Quicktime codec point to the fact that there need to be more programmers on the job.

Now these can come from 3 places, as far as I can tell:
1. Red can hire some more coders
2. Red can get its existing partners to commit more resources
3. Red can open up to other partners

Most camera companies choose option #3, but I'd be game with any choice if it means the workflow situation improves and I can stop defending it to clients.

But IMHO I think Red should decide how much of a software / workflow company they want to be. Tech support comes with this.

End Rant. Sorry!

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[jayfarrington]

Jay,

Good post and good thoughts. But... : )

When you say, "your competition already does..." I have to disagree.

You make the point that "nobody calls Sony or Panansonic or Arri directly for their questions." Well, RED is a camera company. So why should anybody call them directly? : )

Because there is no one else to call. For these other companies, there are hundreds of middle men to call. Sales reps - answer men. That's the difference. That's my whole point : )

Michael Bravin works for a *rental* company, not a camera company. He's not an employee of Sony - he's an employee of BandPro.

Michael Bravin never interfaces with me for rentals. He sells me Sony cameras. Lots of Sony cameras, and VTRs. He's a sales person. The middle man. And because of that, I get fantastic back end support from whatever he sells me and whatever questions I have about the gear he's sold to me.

If you're running a rental company, then YOU need to be the answer-man, right?

Right! And that doesn't happen without a very easy and quick responsive resource on the back end. That has always been from the middle man. Red has no such thing, so I'm encouraging them to continue their great efforts to meet the need and fill this obvious void.

I completely agree that it would be great if there was more information out there. But my personal opinion is that isn't RED's fault. Maybe it's their fault for setting an unusual expectation. But, they are not a post company. They're a camera company.

I don't think it's Red's fault either. But it is their problem to solve, since they're leaving out a major support component that every single one of their competitors has in place. I'm glad they don't have a middle man (major cost savings to us), but it's a huge void they have to fill. Back end support is just as important as making that initial sale if you're hoping for return business and longevity in this industry.

Not saying they can't do it, just pointing out that they don't have it in place yet. If they did, we wouldn't be on this thread at all, would we? ; )

Cheers,

 

[Trevor Meier]

Because the workflow is non-standard, and one of the innovations of RED is the RAW workflow, RED has a responsibility to help potential users out a bit by pointing them in the right direction.

Thinking of the potential targets: (1) DPs, (2) Producers, and (3) Editors (to start):
1. a little bit of information on Bayer CMOS and exposing properly
2. Overall big-picture of what it means to shoot RAW in terms of workflow steps, people and time required to do so
3. Nitty gritty of how to get the footage in and out of both major NLE's (Avid and Apple) with metadata etc. intact.

Likely (3) will have to be updated most often, but (1) could begin as a simple document that gives DP's the heads up on what they're working with, and (2) can be simple enough to get Producers in the right frame of mind before they come talking to us (by us I mean rental houses).

I am spending almost every day, all day talking to producers, DP's and post supers about what it means to shoot RED, the benefits and realities. It would be great if RED could help that process a bit by expanding the Mythbusters videos and a few (short!) whitepapers giving people the basics so they can feel educated.

(And while they're at it... PLEASE give us certified techs in Vancouver... supporting major episodic TV shows is a PITA when you have to send a body away just for a cracked rear LCD. But that's for another thread...)

 

[Patrick Tresch]

Quality of staff is definitely not the problem. You guys are amazing!

However things like the continued lack of a Windows Quicktime codec point to the fact that there need to be more programmers on the job.

Now these can come from 3 places, as far as I can tell:
1. Red can hire some more coders
2. Red can get its existing partners to commit more resources
3. Red can open up to other partners
www.boacinema.com

Bruce your post is great and I think that RED knows exaclty where they stand since long. I don't know if RED has any power to argue with apple... RED market is just a tiny one and Apple has surely other problems to address.

I think the biggest REDCINE development & Code release stopper is their partner Assimilate who risk to loose their monopole on native R3D management. Are we holding our breath on a working REDCINE/R3D non Assimilate workflow/opening the code only because of build 16 emprovement?

I don't think so.

A lot of conforming and CC companies told us they are going to be ready 10 days after code releases. So if the build 15 code release where today, they easily could update it for code of the build 16.

So it's up to RED... but if there is comercial war between Assimilate and RED who will develop REDCINE? (last REDCINE upgrade was 26.02.08)

1 RED year is really 5 business year. If we assume the code will be released 1 year after 1rst camera has been comercially released (bound by something like a contract)... we coul wait until september...?

See you.

Pat

 

[Jarred Land]

Alot of speculation re: Assimilate going on.. For you guys betting that Assimilate is holding us back i wouldn't goto Vegas any time soon...

Seriously though.. alot of good feedback here.. thanks guys.

3rd party support is right around the corner.. and trust me, I just may be more excited about that then some of you are....

 

[Bruce Allen]

Thanks Jarred. Great to hear about upcoming 3rd party support. Seriously, the sooner end-user tech support for this stuff becomes the NLE & finishing vendors' problem and not Red's the better Then let those companies compete to offer the best Red support. That's what they did with every previous camera product.

You guys are obviously a major force in the market and none of them would want to drop you now. I know Apple always believed in you and answered the call first, but since you hired Ted and Graeme I'd darn well EXPECT Apple to believe in you! Now it's time for them to really get behind you guys and stop passing the buck - if I had a DV or DVCPROHD codec problem or workflow question in FCP I wouldn't call Sony / JVC / Panasonic - I'd read the FCP manual and talk to Apple support if necessary.

I'm sure Apple has teams of coders working behind the scenes but to us it seems like you guys are really taking the brunt of supporting *their* workflow. Where are the Apple support people on Reduser? Answer: it's you Red guys working for free, hahaha! The only corporate guys I see here are from Avid, Scratch and Cineform - all trying to help support their workflows.

And don't worry, we like Luki very much. I am even holding out hope for RedCine. At the moment it can't be a "telecine replacement" without some kind of option to import an EDL - and you can't batch through large wads of footage easily because it is not stable enough. But Ian Bloom and Avid's workarounds should make it work properly (combined with stability fixes) - and the good part for you guys is that you don't have to do tech support for those workflows either.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[Patrick Tresch]

3rd party support is right around the corner.. and trust me, I just may be more excited about that then some of you are....

Great to hear that! Thanks Jarred.

Be sure we all are excited!!! :biggrin:

Pat

PS: I didn't quite understand this part :

For you guys betting that Assimilate is holding us back i wouldn't goto Vegas any time soon...

 

[Peace Villow]

The only corporate guys I see here are from Avid, Scratch and Cineform - all trying to help support their workflows.

Also Crimson, Glue Tools, Iridas and Chrome Imaging.

 

[Meryem Ersoz]

I'm sure Apple has teams of coders working behind the scenes but to us it seems like you guys are really taking the brunt of supporting *their* workflow. Where are the Apple support people on Reduser? Answer: it's you Red guys working for free, hahaha! The only corporate guys I see here are from Avid, Scratch and Cineform - all trying to help support their workflows.

hear, hear! Apple has had a running start on this whole thing and they have totally dropped the ball....content to let y'all run yourselves ragged, while they release a few plug-ins that allow their software to work at the most minimal level of operation, while non-partners are scrambling to make the most of these cameras. And, worse still, no evidence that's changing any time soon, even though this digital cinema revolution is clearly gaining traction...

I have to take issue with Luki's claim that RED is a camera company. RED set the expectations from the beginning that workflow would not be abandoned or given the shim-sham, that it would be integral to the development of the system. I just think it is much harder to work both ends than originally anticipated, hence this thread so nicely explaining why so much infrastructure and middle men exist for every other camera company in the world.

Besides, I thought RED was a lifestyle company, isn't that why I have all these stickers and t-shirts??

 

[M Most]

I am even holding out hope for RedCine. At the moment it can't be a "telecine replacement" without some kind of option to import an EDL

I don't know why you would say that. Telecines don't do conforming, and they don't take in EDLs. They generate them, in the form of ALE or similar log files. They are the starting point, not the finishing point. And that's exactly what Redcine was designed to be, just as it's exactly what ScratchCine is designed to be. Having other functionality is nice, but not part of the design criteria.

 

[mezmo]

In the industry area of HD TV and even Film shot on HD or RGB444,
RED is a unknown hybrid system for most Producers, hence the concern.

Most 1080p acquisition systems have an easy option for tape/BRay disk out and
with some of the new 'stand alone' soild state CF Recorders coming , tape
cameras will become dual system. New life for older systems, still with the
security of tape or blue ray disk, yet ability to record uncompressed 1080p.

Producers feel safe with the days shoot in their hot little hands on tape or
B/Ray disk, this will be the case for a long time to come.
RED needs to offer the same security with this camera system and it's post processing software.
Most want better quality acquisition but are not willing to trade security.

So how does RED, a RAW camera that records compressed RAW
data to CF/HD, outboard demosiac and convert post shoot, offer this
finished footage into the hands of a nervous Producer at the end of a shoot day without a lot of stuffing about?

That's what I and many others have found hard to sell about the RED system. Because it's not a system, it's just a camera company.
Or is it, I'm confused, time to take my pills, night all....
Mezmo

 

[Christian Edwards]

3rd party support is right around the corner.. and trust me, I just may be more excited about that then some of you are....

You must be talking about adobe then

 

[liquidigital]

So how does RED, a RAW camera that records compressed RAW data to CF/HD, outboard demosiac and convert post shoot, offer this finished footage into the hands of a nervous Producer at the end of a shoot day without a lot of stuffing about?

This is precisely my point and illustrates just how important this thread is. The nervous producer, who wants to know just enough to know they have security, ease, and support.

I know everyone at RED works hard, so I think 3rd party support is integral to the company's success.

Also (and this belongs in another thread but since we're all chatty Cathy's here) I think RED should have an east coast facility for support and manufacturing as well. Take the brunt off of one branch. Divide and conquer.

:weight_lift:

 

[Bruce Allen]

I don't know why you would say that. Telecines don't do conforming, and they don't take in EDLs. They generate them, in the form of ALE or similar log files. They are the starting point, not the finishing point. And that's exactly what Redcine was designed to be, just as it's exactly what ScratchCine is designed to be. Having other functionality is nice, but not part of the design criteria.

If RedCine worked properly, I might not need EDL import. But since it is slow and unreliable, can't be left to process stuff overnight without crashing, can't write out to tape, can't output DNxHD files at correct settings, etc, I therefore need EDL import in order to be able to even compete with normal film -> telecine workflow. Because processing everything is not reliable and too slow, I need to be able to focus my efforts on taming it to process the specific shots I need for the online.

So how does RED, a RAW camera that records compressed RAW
data to CF/HD, outboard demosiac and convert post shoot, offer this
finished footage into the hands of a nervous Producer at the end of a shoot day without a lot of stuffing about?

Agreed. If the answer was "just import into your editing / finishing program of choice and lay out to tape" that would solve that problem, right? That's why 3rd party development + Windows Quicktime support should be allowed by Red. Glad to hear that it's coming, hope it comes soon.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[Brent Carter]

Guys, rest assured, we at RED are by NO means resting on our laurels and saying "We did it!". Heck, I don't even know what "it" is! We are going to be ever-evolving, we are going to be learning every step of the way. We have a lot of things on our radar, for sure. Remember, we started shipping cameras less than a year ago. So, give us a little time to hit more of those blips on the radar

First and foremost, we are RED ONE camera users ourselves, so we want the same stuff you want!

BC

 

[Jeremy Newmark]

Also (and this belongs in another thread but since we're all chatty Cathy's here) I think RED should have an east coast facility for support and manufacturing as well. Take the brunt off of one branch. Divide and conquer.

:weight_lift:

This would be great. I do believe that RED has stated that this will happen down the road, it's just going to take some time.

 

[Ruby Quincunx]

Why not an online manual, which can be updated as the software evolves?

Why not a wiki? Wikis are an excellent way of putting information online (hence widely available) in a form both more structured & more easily revisable than an online forum or just about any other means of information presentation. An additional benefit is that they are collaborative, meaning that much of the work can & probably will be undertaken by interested & knowledgeable Red users, even if just in terms of masses of data entry, all edited & supervised by the Red team.

Other suggestions such as step-by-step tutorials, video tutorials, white papers, technical specifications, & whatever else, really, can all be incorporated within the context of the wiki. I use wikis in both personal & professional capacities--I use mediawiki (http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/MediaWiki), originally designed for Wikipedia--& find them to be an invaluable means of archiving, presenting, organizing, & indeed, collaborating in the creation of, information.

Best wishes,
RQ

 

[Bang WOW Bang]

White papers could be coming soon........

But wait for build 16..........

May I translate in Simplfy CHINESE so a hugh indies in CHINA can read it to learn more from my CHINESE 's wordings and terminology.

It's a learning curve for some new players though.

Cheers,

Stewart
CEO
WOW Holdings and Digitainment
HKG -CHINA

 

[Evangelos Achillopoulos]

Is it Scratch ONE camera or RED ONE camera?

Is it Scratch ONE camera or RED ONE camera?

The challenge is:

A camera like RED is a TWO piece system, the one is on our hands, with all the buttons, mounts etc. and the other is the debayering RAW software.

The camera alone is nothing; the software alone, again, is nothing.

The two together, form a system that it should work.

You can’t have just one of the two working well and the other with hiccups… the result could be a disaster.

So none can say the RED is a camera company, Lucas, since the camera IS, so much, depended to software.

Moreover the camera can be owned, but the software has to be freely distributed, if the camera wants to succeed in the world of cinematography. So RED does not have the luxury to depend on a 17K$ software that’s called Scratch Cine, by any means…

Because remember it will be Scratch’s camera, not RED camera…

So the level of quality that’s on the software side must be in line or better than the camera itself, moreover to bypass the problem of the “nervous producer” the support of the freely distributed software, that’s being used from post houses around the globe, must be in a “real time” basis. A chat room would be nice.

Jared, if RED really wants to succeed, I have one motto:

“Only the best is good enough” and that’s apply to everything from ergonomics to support. People are comparing you with monsters like Sony or Matsushita (Panasonic), you have to prevail!

I see EPIC (which I hope, that it will be good enough, to be my next camera) and it still need, from a third party, to build an angled BNC accessory… yes its not a fragile SMA connector anymore it’s a proper BNC… but see an AATON design and try to understand the philosophy of ergonomics behind it… see your competitors camera SI2K how good design had the P+S guys made… If you perceive the ergonomics phyloshophy, try to redesign EPIC in your mind and try to apply this design philosophy, along with your design innovation, to all the handles bits and pieces… you know how beautiful the wooden handle of AATON…is? The natural exit angle the BNC’s have… The split sensor design of P+S can do miracles in 3D… A camera is not a Rock Star, that man has to serve… it’s a machine, that has to serve man.

 

[Jarred Land]

that was almost poetic Evangelos