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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Red needs a "Post" guy

This whole thread brings up an interesting point. Of course, we have a post guy, and yes he is a Rockstar, most people know him and yes you can call him anytime. Some people obviously have never asked, but maybe they didn't know that option was available.

As this thread was misleading and contained negative false information from the start, I imagine some "official" white papers could clear up some of the misconceptions out there.. so I think it really is a great idea.


I am wondering what the public "expectations" are from us.. as RED. Do you guys expect us to have a fleet of guys standing by phones to hand hold (for free?) you guys whenever a post problem comes up? Or is it just white papers you guys are after to get your head around things? It's a sincere question... Let us know what your after so we can support you guys in the best way possible.
 
White papers could be coming soon........

But wait for build 16..........
 
Yes, after build 16 there needs to be very detailed white papers on:

Building the camera.
Accessories.
Graeme's detailed description on Bayer technology and perceptible resolution (myth bust the 'RED is not 4:4:4 misconception)
What is REDCODE RAW and why is it awesome??!!! :)
Shooting RAW (histograms, DR, what the ASA really means, etc...)
Developing RAW (which debayer is right for you?)
Transcoding your footage to your desired format (ProRes, HDCAM SR, DigiBeta, DPX, etc....)
Outputing for film outs (LOG, REDLog, 685, 985, etc...)
Edit and onlining workflows....

With all this documentation, you won't need a fleet of guys standing by phones to hand hold for free. This would eliminate most of the FUD that tends to happen on sets and in the post facilities.

But I realize that 16 probably has to be finished before any of the documentation can begin.
 
Jarred Land said:
I am wondering what the public "expectations" are from us.. as RED. Do you guys expect us to have a fleet of guys standing by phones to hand hold (for free?) you guys whenever a post problem comes up? Or is it just white papers you guys are after to get your head around things? It's a sincere question... Let us know what your after so we can support you guys in the best way possible.
Click to expand...

Jarred I'll tell you. I recently recommended to a director friend to use RED for his upcoming project/ indie. His response was verbatim "I would, but I've heard they're having issues in post."

This fundamentally bothered me, because I really want to see RED succeed. I've been with you since DVXUser. I thought you were doing great things for the community then, and now with RED, I am really excited to spread the news, so to speak. About this community and RED's products.

When someone says to me "issues in post" I would love to say this...

"What are you editing on? You know what, if you go to RED.com, you'll find all the docs. on post workflow in addition to video tutorials. It's really easy. Oh, you're on an AVID. No problem. Oh, Final Cut, even easier."

This is all good discussion. I'm glad to know about Kevin, and I'm sure he's working his ass off. Sometimes it's just hard to keep up with everything. But I do think docs, phones, vids, all of it, is essential. Kill the intimidation about RED by showing an easy to manage workflow. Show producers, directors, DOPS and editors, this is the easiest, most efficient way to have digital cinema.
 
It is critical to wait until build 16 emerges, and there is enough time to test it, see what has changed, etc. Also, there will be changes in the apps as well. But once it is all sussed out, then these papers WILL happen. Right now there are a lot of moving targets.

There is a lot of misinformation out there for sure, but the easiest thing to do is get people in the edit suite and show them that you can edit right off the RED Drive instantly, in high resolution, and possibly even use that cut as your final depending on delivery. Once they see how easy that is, you can then expand on details as to how to conform, color grade, etc. But people have been really amazed when I showed them that I shot something and then fifteen minutes later had an edit, albeit with proxies. Seeing it first hand, helps put some of the myths to rest.
 
I don't even think things need to be as complicated as white papers. Just some step-by-step descriptions with any accompanying explanations would help. That's how most people seem to incorporate workflow descriptions. And centrally located, so we don't have to wade through reams of reduser links. Maybe with an FAQ.

No offense, Jarred and Brent, I love my cameras, I love my Bomb Squadder. But sometimes y'all think if you post something here, that it is somehow a done deal -- that we couldn't possibly to too busy to miss a post that is suddenly buried under three pages of links...but just look how much happier everyone is now that we can refer to Big Jon's updates. But also, look how often users have to be re-directed to that update. It's never a one time thing.

I knew about Kevin - read his intro - it never occurred to me to bombard him with questions. I don't even feel particularly comfortable bombarding him with questions.

As with everything, a single upgraded lockable thread would probably do the trick. Where we know we can trust the source and trust that the information could be regularly upgraded. I would love to see a Big Jon-esque thread from Kevin. He could just add the best, most recent info and delete any thread which is out of date. Tweak as things change.

That doesn't sound hard to me, or like hand-holding, and it may in fact, spare Kevin from repeating himself endlessly about the same damn things.

He could even add guest workflows -- from people who are willing to answer questions about that particular workflow on his behalf -- say, for instance, here is how Gunleik is using GlueTools in a RED workflow, and then suggest that questions for it be re-directed to whoever devised the workflow, in this case Gunleik. I think these things could easily be spread around, the frequent users here are darned helpful.

It just sounds like an efficient way to keep everyone as up to date on workflow issues as we are now on other things....

I'm glad Mike brought this up, though -- I think his main point is absolutely on the mark -- getting information out about workflow is not efficient at the moment. Even a dedicated thread will not be perfect all the time, but it will be a big improvement over the current situation. And clearly, putting out more mythbusters is a lot of work.
 
Jarred Land said:
As this thread was misleading and contained negative false information from the start, I imagine some "official" white papers could clear up some of the misconceptions out there.. so I think it really is a great idea.
Click to expand...

Jarred, I really hope thats not how I came across. I was not trying to be negative, as much as I was trying to point out some people are in over their head and passing off bad info.

Red has hit an amazing maturity level where the majority of problems are no longer in the camera, but are happening after the shoot. It's now time (well after 16) that Red gets some hardcore documentation down for the less adventurous types.
 
Jarred Land said:
As this thread was misleading and contained negative false information from the start, I imagine some "official" white papers could clear up some of the misconceptions out there.. so I think it really is a great idea.
Click to expand...

Meh. I'm with you Mike. I think the FIRE CHIEF's comments were a little INFLAMMATORY. Waka waka.

But it's his house...and the discussion you started appears to be raising good points.

Thanks for your posts on Art's article. And thanks Art for having a crack at it.
 
Meryem.. some great ideas in there.

Ed and Mike.. No intention to offend at all.. Mike is like family. The Post just read to some people like we are just letting people hang out to dry, to go figure it out themselves, and that we didnt care enough to actually have a post guy here, which is grossly misleading and personally concerning since we spend ALOT of time and resources focused on workflow. I was using it as an analogy.. and apologies for using you as an example man.

We are still developing remember, so writing a book on the RED WORKFLOW when everything changes so often is a little counterproductive.. but I do agree with the majority of voices here, we do need to put alot more basic tutorial-level information out there.

And I must thank Art as well for attempting to filling that void.. as well as many others that are taking a swing at it.
 
There are some good resources out there right now, including Mike Seymour's classes over at fxphd.com .

I guess the challenge here is that there is no one size fits all approach to any of this. That is why a lot of post houses will write custom apps to handle their specific needs. What works for one post house, may not necessarily work another. So, it will be hard to write a definitive paper or book on a lot of this, but certainly there are some things that could be clarified in white papers or video tutorials that would be beneficial to a lot of people.

Once Build 16 happens, I'm fairly confident there will be a lot of resources springing up with exactly the kind of info you guys are looking for. (hint, hint):innocent:
 
I think an obvious issue is that there are so many end uses for Red footage that it is difficult to make a one-size-fits-all workflow (witness the current issue relating to aliasing on SD downconversions). Short form needs (spots) are very different from long form needs (TV specials and series). Film outs are very different from television delivery which includes both SD and HD. Budgets are also very different, some allowing for expensive on-line work, some expecting that it will all be done in the spare bedroom.

But I agree that it would be very helpful to have clear documentation for the camera and the software.
Rob Gardner
 
I had a client right on the edge to shoot some spots with the RED,
he tested the workflow and hated it. He is Mr. "Give me a tape"
we shot some stuff on P2 for him but he insisted on
a transfer to tape . Jeez
 
Red Guy said:
I had a client right on the edge to shoot some spots with the RED,
he tested the workflow and hated it. He is Mr. "Give me a tape"
we shot some stuff on P2 for him but he insisted on
a transfer to tape . Jeez
Click to expand...

At some point they will probably all have to give in. The writing is on the wall. Though I don't see tape disappearing for a while.

If you have a lot of these client's who need tapes but want RED's look, then perhaps you should have a look at Scratch Cine. If you can justify the investment, might not be a bad way to go.
 
Jarred and Kevin, grab a copy of your favorite screen capture utility (iShowU is a good one for OSX and Camtasia is good on Windows) and make some video tutorials. Or send me a camera and I'll do it :) That will help more than you guys could ever know.

iShowU:
http://www.shinywhitebox.com

Camtasia
http://www.techsmith.com
 
I am one of "those guys" that Mike helped out. I was completely stumped by Red Cine. Without Mike's help, I'd still be processing clips one-at-a-time in Red Alert. There are still many aspects of the Red Cine I don't understand. Red needs to publish documentation. Today. What's the point of releasing software without a manual? It's not a video game with hidden easter eggs... it's a tool! I have a busy career as a cinematographer / editor. I don't have endless time to read every forum post, or sit in front of my computer and perform trial and error tests.

Why not an online manual, which can be updated as the software evolves?

Chris Bell
www.spotshooter.com
Red Camera 346
 
Jarred Land said:
I am wondering what the public "expectations" are from us.. as RED. Do you guys expect us to have a fleet of guys standing by phones to hand hold (for free?) you guys whenever a post problem comes up? Or is it just white papers you guys are after to get your head around things? It's a sincere question... Let us know what your after so we can support you guys in the best way possible.
Click to expand...

Hey Jarred,

You guys are in an interesting position because you've redefined how this whole pro-camera-to-consumer paradigm can work. By cutting out the middle man, you're saving us, the end user, a LOT of money as there are no salespeople/commissions to compensate for - and bravo on that.

But it also puts you at a disadvantage in another sense. The middle man has traditionally also been - the answer man! No one calls Sony or Panasonic or Arri directly for answers to their questions - they call the guy who got a whopping commission by selling you that product to begin with . And that sales guy responds. Quickly. Definitively. Or else next time I'll buy from some other sales guy - and get the same product - just from someone more responsive.

I can send a random email to Michael Bravin or Ron Ayers and have complete confidence that within an hour or two I'll have a response to my Sony or Panasonic question. Period. Their livelihoods depend on it, and they respond in kind. And they're fantastic at this. And it's great.

I'm not saying Red can't achieve the same thing, you can, but currently, it's just not set up that way. You ask us if "you guys expect us to have a fleet of guys standing by phones to hand hold (for free?) you guys whenever a post problem comes up" . . . and I can only say to that, "Your competition already does."

It's in the form of the middle man. I'm not advocating for it, but it is something Red has to overcome/replace in order to compete on the same field as your competition. A fleet of guys standing by phones and laptops ready to answer every question at every turn? Well . . . YES!

I'm sure it seems ridiculous to the Red Team how many questions, concerns, and wide eyed Producers cross your path needing seemingly infantile support for something you've all figured out ages ago . . . but that's how it works when you're dealing with the public. The questions never end. The education never stops. Every day is the first day that some new customer has heard of your product and knows nothing about it, but within a few hours needs to know EVERYTHING about it.

It's great that you have a post guru in place. First I've heard of it, because I'm busy running a rental house and obviously missed it. But great that you have it. You need MANY MANY MANY more!!

Those testing and renting my Reds love what they're getting. Love it! But selling the workflow to the Producers without a bullet-proof, idiot-proof post path in place is like gaff taping a grenade in their mouth with the pin tied to a hot sauce drinking spider monkey! Not a good visual, am I right? But there you have it.

Back end support is the thing that "seems" to be missing. Maybe it's not. But the fact that so many of us feel that it "appears" to be missing points to a void in the support structure. The comfort and confidence to simply pick up the phone or type an email to my "regional Red rep" to answer questions isn't there. I don't know why not. Maybe it's there and there needs to be a campaign pointing this out to us? But it seems missing at the moment in comparison to the other manufacturers who populate my camera vaults : )

Let the flames begin!
 
Jay,

Good post and good thoughts. But... : )

When you say, "your competition already does..." I have to disagree.

You make the point that "nobody calls Sony or Panansonic or Arri directly for their questions." Well, RED is a camera company. So why should anybody call them directly? : )

Michael Bravin works for a *rental* company, not a camera company. He's not an employee of Sony - he's an employee of BandPro.

I know of 3 different rental facilities that have Final Cut and SCRATCH in-house so they can deal with and answer any and all workflow questions about the RED themselves. So they *can* be Michael Bravin. (although, Michael - if you're reading - nobody can REALLY be you. : ) )

I think what's missing is the rental infrastructure. Sony, Panasonic, et al. have had years and years to build up that network of resellers, distributors and "middle-men" that you refer to for answering those questions. RED has had less than a year. Plus, you're right that the model they espouse is new. It is a hybrid of the professional and consumer models, and we've yet to see what effect it will really have on the market.

If you're running a rental company, then YOU need to be the answer-man, right?

I completely agree that it would be great if there was more information out there. But my personal opinion is that isn't RED's fault. Maybe it's their fault for setting an unusual expectation. But, they are not a post company. They're a camera company.

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, inc.
LA, CA, USA
 
Jarred Land said:
T
I am wondering what the public "expectations" are from us.. as RED. Do you guys expect us to have a fleet of guys standing by phones to hand hold (for free?) you guys whenever a post problem comes up? Or is it just white papers you guys are after to get your head around things? It's a sincere question... Let us know what your after so we can support you guys in the best way possible.
Click to expand...

Here's my 2c:

The people who usually stand by the phones are the people making the software that is used for the workflow.

This is currently restricted BY RED'S CHOICE to:
1. Red
2. Apple
3. Assimilate

So these 3 companies have to bear the brunt of it.

When you open up and allow Adobe, Avid, discreet, Cineform, Iridas, Quantel, to build Red support into their software, they can help field the calls.

To use the DSLR analogy, if there are problems with Canon's RAW conversion workflow, Canon needs to handle it. But nobody uses Canon's RAW conversion workflow. Everyone uses Adobe / Apple and a handful of boutique programs (Bibble, Phase One, etc). So the workflow burden is shared.

If Canon didn't allow Adobe to read their files, then yes, Canon would have to field the calls or risk giving their DSLRs a bad workflow reputation.

Similarly, if there are problems with HDV, MiniDV etc workflow, the calls go to the NLE people.

I disagree that rental companies need to cover this - just as if I rent a DSLR from a company, they don't need to give me infinite training on workflow.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
 
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