Welcome to our community

Be a part of something great, join today!

  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

RED narrative production issues- R&D priorities!

morpheusfilm

Member
Joined
Nov 20, 2007
Messages
13
Reaction score
0
Points
0
I've finally had the chance to go through the system and do tests and have been contemplating the realities of using the camera to shoot a feature. The following serious issues seem to be the most important things for me, as a professional DP to overcome and convince producers and directors that this is the system to use.
1) The most serious problem and top priority for me is to have the ability to use the on-board LCD while sending a signal at least to the director. The integrated LCD monitor is essential for focus assist and exposure /color/histograph/waveform info and to be forced to switch to an external on-board with none of these integrated functions just so the director can see something too, is a real problem. I can see that mounting the integrated as well as another monitor is the way to solve this, but it really is a clunky way of working and is a serious impedance to efficient on set work. This needs to be solved immediately and I'm not even going into the fact that there is no viewfinder enabled so the operator and the focus puller have to work off the same monitor. There are many situations in which the 1st AC must operate on the other side of the camera and then we have a real problem.
2) Sound- The camera is Goddamn loud. Even in quiet mode it is almost at a level that I can only call it an MOS camera. I don't know any sound man in LA that is not going to complain about this camera vigorously and openly, causing numerous political problems on set. The noise seems to be mostly coming from the left bottom side of the camera where the cards slot in. The card slot itself has a hole all around it that because there is no insulation the fan sound is emminating out of it big time. The drive also reverberates a lot. I will be forced to drape a frickin blimp on the camera every time I shoot a closeup of an actor. Could the RED folks at least put some sound insulating baffel or replace that drive cover with something that can help this issue. Also we all know that quiet mode is for shit when we will all be shooting next summer in 90 degree heat. The camera just shuts down. I would suggest making one of the user programable buttons capable of switching from normal to quiet mode so you could do so efficiently just before rolling.
3)Fix the poorly designed dovetale mounting plate. After two weeks of use the stock locking mounting plate is absolutely useless. It wobbles like the tower of Piza. Our camera has been converted to Arri dovetale but that causes problems with the Redcage configuration and makes coversion to hand held a real pain in the ass. Everything else in the system is so well engineered that this critical oversight is really embarassing.
4) Forget about the RED lenses. Yes they are cheap. The also suck beyond belief. We took one look at both the primes and the zoom and sent it all back. I haven't seen so much lense breathing since fucked up film school Angenieux 12-120's. I would respectfully suggest that the companies resources could be much better used in making the camera work fully to capacity as opposed to spending the 5+ years in R&D to make a good set of primes. No DP who has any real professional experience could possibly except those lenses of yours. Everyone is going to be using Zeiss glass or Cookes anyway. I repeat; FORGET ABOUT DEVELOPING A SET OF LENSES FOR NOW.
5) Ok- lower on the list but still damn important is playback. Yea I know, firmware upgrade in the future but what this means realistically on set is that we must rent an external HD deck to record the 720p signal so the director can have playback. Extra cost=producer's wonder 'Is it all worth it'. And yea, we could have a downconverter in the workflow to make it more cost effective for playback, but who the hell wants to look at a 640X480 version of 4k? It's like getting a massage in Bangkok without the happy finish.
6) Speed. Really dissapointing. 4K/60P? When oh when- 'cause I can already see that every damn action sequence I'll have to shoot will be in 2K. And then we have to match the 2k to 4k and I won't even go into the depth of field issue. You cannot use this camera to do stunts, fights, car action, pyro or anything else that requires slo mo. Did I say really disappointing?
7) 11.3 stops latitude. Again a real disappointment. I kept hearing 13 and that would have been really something. Because I have filter configurations that can gain another stop, but 11.3? I can get almost 11 with my varicam. Why oh why is it that nobody seems to recognize that this is the main failing of digital capture vs. film. Film has 16+ stops. Each and every stop is DOUBLE the amount of light and capability to render detail. Critical for highlights. It is the MAIN difference in the mediums and ONLY when digital can break the barrier of letting me shoot day exterior locations with no light attenuation will the medium become what I know will replace film. Every action sequence ranging over large day exterior areas basically means no lighting- car chases, running street sequences, run and gun actor follows, exterior steadicam, landscape establishing- all of it is uncontrolled and until you can get the damn sensors to get at least 13 stops, you're not even in the ball park. I loved the earlier posts suggesting Hi-dynamic range with dual capture using differing gamma curves. But alas speed, speed....
I want to say that yes I really like where it is going and I wholeheartedly support what the developers of RED are trying to achieve, I just wanted to lay out here the real world concerns I know will be the obstacles to get a prod. company to take the plunge into RED. And I wanted to set out what MY priorities would be for it's crucial initial development for use in feature film, which I believe is really the main use of this system.
 
Morpheusfilm, this is more a "passionate constructive criticism" thread for a future RED TWO, right?

I'm just asking because it kinda sounded like you were upset because all of these things aren't in RED ONE?

For example, 4K / 60P would be awesome as heck but Red has always been very open on their website that that could only happen with a fast disk array. Which they (And others - Codex?) are working on. To do compressed 4K / 60P in high-quality Redcode in realtime would require the mother of all FPGA chips, which would make current heat / size / price considerations seem like a little game of tiddlywinks.

A lot of your points make a lot of sense... just why do you seem so angry? Are you just enthusiastic - did I misread you? Reduser seems so vicious these days, maybe it's all in my head?

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
 
WOW.

Interesting perspective. I have already worked with several very well known DOP's and they have a different take on the camera...

but i will try and address some of your concerns as an early serial number holder and someone whom has done a fair amount of "real world" work with the camera.

1. mounting the lcd with the red israeli and then one of many smaller lcd's with a loop out to video village will solve this problem, done this with great results on may shows thus far. not so clunky if you have the right equipment, rigging and attitude.

2. the camera you used must have a problem. we have shot sync sound on at least 10 shows without one problem, camera when rolling is QUIET, there must be a setting that is wrong, and or you were using the wrong build...more on that later. (i do recall one build that did have a problem with the fan, perhaps you were on that build.)

3. my dovetail works fine, go out and get some 19mm rods, and accessories and bag the arri mounting plate. every rental house in LA has 19mm accessories, they are just not used to using them. ask nice and they will dig them out.

4. rent cookes, master primes or ultra-primes...you will not be disappointed, i am certain that no one expects the RED lenses to perform like the aforementioned, rather they are for little johnny that is stepping up from his HVX or Z1U and wants to shoot without renting or selling his car.

5. PLAYBACK IS ENABLED IN Build 9, 1.5.1...AND IT WORKS FUCKEN GREAT MATE! We have had it since 11/02/07...21 days and bullet proof...you should download it and or pay attention to what is happening, again been out for three weeks!

6. the new daughterboard may address this...but until, the 2k 72fps works great and looks great.

7. academy award nominated dp's say it has that range just by shooting and looking at the redalert/redcine output...even better range than film in the shadows...so, maybe you need to do more tests or find a better scratch/color operator.

not trying to pick a fight, but not sure where you are coming from; this is not film, it is a great first attempt at approaching the film resolution and quality, on set work flow and post production work flow for INDEPENDENTS!!!! THAT CAN'T AFFORD 1,000,000 FEET OF FILM FOR THEIR FEATURES...

you got the duckets for a film camera, stock, processing, telecine, neg cutting, IN, IP, Prints, shipping, 5+ man camera dept....then this might not be the camera for you...if you dig the analogue sandwich, good luck with that, you will see less and less of that as time goes by, it is just a fact.

this is a DIGITAL CINEMA camera, made for the future workflow of an all digital acquisition, distribution and exhibition model. it will and is saving millions of dollars by staying all digital and will also help save the environment, if just a little bit.

in the past ten days i have been on two major shoots; multi-million dollar commercials and music videos where there were two 435 packages, master primes, 5+ member camera dept and little ole RED with just little ole ME and my IMAC...and after 8 hours, the fucken film cameras are in cases and the RED is shooting master shots!!!!

so not sure what world you are in, but RED is changing things, and you can fight it all you want, but at the end of the day, it is a business and just like there are very few 1979 lincoln continentals driving on the freeways because gas is 3.50 a gallon, there will be fewer and fewer film cameras going out on jobs as this camera gets out there, i have seen it happen first hand. one shoot 2 435's and one red, two weeks later, 3 reds...

good luck

p.s. a double carriage return works wonders when telling a story with letters...you should try it sometime.

p.s.s. LESSON ONE IN CONVINCING A PRODUCER TO USE RED.....SHOW HIM HOW MUCH MONEY HE/SHE WILL SAVE.

LINE 2004 RAW STOCK....0
LINE 3040 CAMERA LOADER....0
LINE 3122 CAMERA EXPENDABLES....0
LINE 5036 PROCESSING.....0
LINE 5039 TELECINE PREP....0
LINE 5044 TELECINE....0
LINE 5065 TAPE STOCK....0
LINE 6392 CARTAGE/COURIER FOR TAPES & STOCK TO LAB/EDIT....0
LINE 7002 ASSISTANT EDITOR FOR DIGITIZE.....0
LINE 7010 3 WEEKS EDIT BAY RENTAL FOR DIGITIZE....0
LINE 7233 NEGATIVE CUTTER....0
LINE 8221 INTER-NEGATIVE...0
LINE 8231 INTER-POSITIVE...0
LINE 8322 PRINTS....0

this could go on all night....DO THE MATH.
 
EDIT: the above post covered it better... it wasn't there when I started this one ;) What's up, KOSMOS3D?!?

...breaking it down further:

1) I'm sure will be fixed in the future, since it was promised

2) may or may not be fixed. Can't you turn the fan totally off though? It may or may not be an issue with future cameras (circuits are constantly evolving - 2010's chips will generate less heat if asked to do the same thing that 2007's chips are doing, but maybe they'll be trying to do 4K / 240P RedCode and then you'll have a hot camera again in slow-mo circumstances - although for slow motion it won't matter so much - once you hit quiet operation at normal speeds you're all set ;)

3) maybe it'll be revised (they have already improved the PL mount)

4) Some of the issues you mentioned seem physically impossible - eg it's incredibly hard to make a small, light, close-focus zoom without breathing. On the other hand I agree about other issues of lens construction and wish Red had skewed their lenses in a more Zeiss / Cooke-like way - eg trade off size, weight and close-focus for less breathing, less play, etc.

5) I'm sure playback will happen soon.

6) 4K / 60P can't happen on REDCODE right now for reasons discussed above.

7) 11.3 stops was all that was promised. Some people (including me) thought it would be 11.3 "usable filmmaker's stops", not 11.3 "scientific, counting into the noise floor" stops, but hey, that was just wishful thinking. Certainly, that's enough for a lot of outdoor stuff with clever use of grads, filters, maybe a digicon, etc. Of course it'd be great if it improved. Red has mentioned putting in new circuitry with a lower noise floor, so maybe it will, a bit.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
 
Just Representin Yo!!!! For My Peeps!
 
Maybe film workflow still has some advantage... in some situations... But this advantage is so small [based on what I've seen\read\heard], and the price for it is so huge that it is not worth it... especially for indie-level productions...

And things will get better and better for RED and other digital cameras... unlike film, where no groundbreaking revolutions are expected...

The main problem with film is its price and also workflow difficulties... that's why it's doomed...

Film will die and so will RED ONE [meaning that there will be RED TWO and other developments in the future].

Cinema will live on...

My 2 cents.
 
Lenses

Lenses

4) Forget about the RED lenses. Yes they are cheap. The also suck beyond belief. We took one look at both the primes and the zoom and sent it all back. I haven't seen so much lense breathing since fucked up film school Angenieux 12-120's. I would respectfully suggest that the companies resources could be much better used in making the camera work fully to capacity as opposed to spending the 5+ years in R&D to make a good set of primes. No DP who has any real professional experience could possibly except those lenses of yours. Everyone is going to be using Zeiss glass or Cookes anyway. I repeat; FORGET ABOUT DEVELOPING A SET OF LENSES FOR NOW.

But I would not forget it.

Still exists a perfect glass that is not commercially rehoused in cine lenes.

LEICA-R set of primes:


Wide angle lenses:

15 mm 1:2,8 LEICA SUPER-ELMARIT-R 15 mm f/2.8 ASPH.
19 mm 1:2,8 LEICA ELMARIT-R 19 mm f/2.8
28 mm 1:2,8 LEICA ELMARIT-R 28 mm f/2.8
28 mm 1:2,8 LEICA PC-SUPER-ANGULON-R 28 mm f/2.8
35 mm 1:1,4 LEICA SUMMILUX-R 35 mm f/1.4
35 mm 1:2 LEICA SUMMICRON-R 35 mm f/2

Standard lenses:

50 mm 1:1,4 LEICA SUMMILUX-R 50 mm f/1.4
50 mm 1:2 LEICA SUMMICRON-R 50 mm f/2

Telephoto lenses:

80 mm 1:1,4 LEICA SUMMILUX-R 80 mm f/1.4
90 mm 1:2 LEICA APO-SUMMICRON-R 90 mm f/2 ASPH.
180 mm 1:2 LEICA APO-SUMMICRON-R 180 mm f/2
180 mm 1:2,8 LEICA APO-ELMARIT-R 180 mm f/2.8
280 mm 1:4 LEICA APO-TELYT-R 280 mm f/4

Macro lenses:

60 mm 1:2,8 LEICA MACRO-ELMARIT-R 60 mm f/2.8
100 mm 1:2,8 LEICA APO-MACRO-ELMARIT-R 100 mm f/2.8

Suprer telephoto lensess:

280-800 mm 1:5,9 LEICA APO-TELYT-R Module System

------------------------------------

Somebody would add that Panavision already did rehousing Leica for the Primo-L lens series.

That's true but they did it with ELCAN (Ernst Leitz Canada) and also no piece of Panavision equipment is for sale.

But there are still Leica Camera AG in Solms, Germany and Leica Cinema GmbH in Zürich, Switzerland.

So if RED is looking for a better glass in the future LEICA is the best way to go.
 
Morpheusfilm, not bad as for 3-rd post of yours.
I see many contradictions in your post. Also you are not the owner of RED so you forgot to mention that you are buying apples and comparing to oranges.
If you scan the posts on this forum for tips and advice you could find many answers to your problems.
Your post sounds like typical DP that got used to the old type of ...., forgive me, the LEGACY equipment, and has trouble to figure out the new ways the industry is going to operate.

I guess you had brief encounter with the RED camera, one day?

Ask more questions here, spend more time shooting on RED and half of your show stoppers will be gone.
 
4K 60fps

4K 60fps

Yes, 4K 60fps could be recorded to an external DDR device once you have the RAW PORT installed. For compressed RAW (i.e REDCODE), the current limits - as expressed on Build 9 v1.5.1 - are 4K to 25fps and 2K to 75fps. Things also change pretty quick around here with new firmware builds.

p.s. Its not possible to shoot with RED PRIMES, they are not released yet.
 
Film has 16+ stops.
Let's just disagree on that one small point here. None of the published curves for any film stock that I've seen show remotely near 16 stops, never mind more.

Graeme
 
Good point Stuart. If anyone's on FXPHD, Mike did a very balanced review of the RED Lens there, that rather contradicts the above posters feelings about it.

Graeme
 
I red two more posts of Morpheus, actually it is one double posted, and looks like Morpheus is obsessed with dynamic range. I like the fact that his post triggers discussion though. Morpheus, all what is posted in this thread was already posted on this forum few times but educating the new members always brings some new ideas.

Morpheus, there is many inconsistencies in your opinion that I attribute to the fact that you are new here and you didn't play with the camera long enough.

1) RED primes - where did you see it? I think primes are not released yet?

2) Dynamic range of the film – first, who is using more then 14 stops stock?
Are we taking scientific material used for special purposes, you are forgetting that before the original negative is shown on the screen in the theaters it is copied 3 or 4 times as oppose to the digital cinema that shows exactly 100% what you shoot.

3) Monitor output versus view finder output, where you have been when we discussed it extensively here.

4) Noisy fan on the camera, again, minimum 5 threads on this forum discussing it, where did you see film camera that is more quiet?
 
Morpheus, apparently the dynamic range is good for people like Steven Soderbergh and Peter Jackson. What where you planning on shooting that it's not enough for you?

And next time you're in Bangkok try a real Thai massage - not a shady one, it's cheap and good for your health!
 
having slept on this a bit i forgot to also mention one thing....1,000 foot loads are much "BULKIER" than a a small LCD...

not sure which 35mm camera you are talking about unless it's an IMO with a 100 footer, but that IS an MOS camera...

but i think by 18 posts you may actually get the fact that you are a bit outnumbered in your opinions and I agree that you may need a bit more time behind the wheel so to speak to further develop your understanding of RED's capabilities.

thanks for your post, it helped with the digestion of turkey and stopped me from eating more because i was furiously typing.

cheers
 
Actually is Pisa, not Piza, the tower. And it "wobbles" since august 1173...
Maybe you meant pizza, a tower of pizzas, but that would not wobble too, imho, cause of the cheese making a solid grip between the layers.
 
the best part of morpheus' post is that it got dino to respond with more useable information for the rest of us...

as an independent producer, i'm mystified by the producers who enter this site, waving their egos and declaring their self-importance and vast experience. under the nose of the world's most humble billionaire, who treats his customers, from high-end home moviemaker to feature filmmaker, with equal respect.

no camera is going to be the only camera for every application or for every user. go shoot your film camera with cooke lenses, who cares? feed the swagger...
 
Forget about the RED lenses. Yes they are cheap. They also suck beyond belief. We took one look at both the primes and the zoom and sent it all back.

It seems like no primes exist except the 300mm which I shot with some and was happy with. It compares favorably with a 300mm Canon PL mount I've used for 35mm. At some point I want to do some serious testing, but I was initially impressed.

All oppinions are valid Morpheus, but I think you should be more specific about the problems you encountered, and on which lenses you encountered them in order to be constructive.

i am certain that no one expects the RED lenses to perform like the aforementioned, rather they are for little johnny that is stepping up from his HVX or Z1U.

I think you may be wrong about the RED primes and about the people who are shooting with the HVX. Check the camera specs on some of the films at Sundance last year.

We are all just lucky that the RED lenses aren't priced in Euros.

IBloom
 
Back
Top