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Red Mythbusters: Well done!
- Thread starter Russell Fogle
- Start date
- Banned
- #62
So its just a big FCP edit bay? I wish mine had a 4K finishing system in it.
you can add adobe cs3 to your fcs, then you have a 4K onlining solution on the same system and the same OS. Not as fast as a DVS clipster, filmlight baselight, or quantel pablo / iQ, but it works well.
I like the video - however i think what is irritating to some it that it is only show what is possible and what works, but not what is missing and doesnt work to good so far - we often have customers on the phone who tell us that they can directly work in fcp in 4k and are surprised when we explain them that that is only low-quality, that fcs cant do 4K, has only 8bit RGB and that for the best RED quality they would need to have a go-around via redcine/alert. But hey, thats whats marketing is for!
Jason Sinclair
Well-known member
What i got from it was you can do 2k offline edit, without transcode on a off the shelf mac with kona card, which is pretty amazing. Of course then you've done all the hard work and can then set your xml to start for online direction using 4k as the standard on which to travel that path which includes taking those files and going to 35mm or whatever.. I really don't see why people are complicating it. In it's price range, it's amazing. Considering the current stage of technology versus price, it's phenomenal. Maybe some excitment got in the way of the communication but i think you should relook at the scene, leaving a judgemental mindset out of it. Because if your mind is set to judge you will find a problem but unfortunatly for you, you will not be finding the truth.
Thats the problem with marketing ( and I'm not singling Red out here, lots of companies are guilty of it), is the misconceptions it can create. Like Laguun, I have to explain to lot of people why you can't work directly in 4K in FCP. They are surprised it can't, because Apple and Red marketing has created the impression in their minds that it is doable and it is easy. And that's my problem with the mythbuster video. Now we can all argue until we are blue on the whether this video alludes to the ease of 4K editing process or just the ease of importing proxy files, selective reading of the script, graphics and images can support either thesis. But it really needs to be looked at in a wider context, this video isn't really intended for the readership of this forum. Anyone who has lurked on this forum for anytime isn't going to learn anything new from this video, if they have they must have been going through a lot of pain up till now 
This video is designed to put potential clients at ease about working with Red. The video only really deals with one aspect of the work flow,and the casual viewer may get the impression that this is all you need known about the workflow or that all aspects of the Red workflow are that straight forward and easy. Also remember Ted and Mike say in the video there is no need for a second video as they have busted the myths. Are they being serious or sharing a joke? Anyone who has worked with it knows at this stage of development there are quite a few bumps in the road which have to be watched out for. It is not a matter of going out and buying a mac and a Red and you are in business especially if you want to do 4K. Sure you can say not everyone wants to work in 4K, but 4K is the catchphrase in Red and Apple's marketing. The word 4K is used more in this video than 2K. Which words do you think your potential client is going to remember? I bet it's not proxy. This might be good marketing for Red, but is it good for you?
This video is designed to put potential clients at ease about working with Red. The video only really deals with one aspect of the work flow,and the casual viewer may get the impression that this is all you need known about the workflow or that all aspects of the Red workflow are that straight forward and easy. Also remember Ted and Mike say in the video there is no need for a second video as they have busted the myths. Are they being serious or sharing a joke? Anyone who has worked with it knows at this stage of development there are quite a few bumps in the road which have to be watched out for. It is not a matter of going out and buying a mac and a Red and you are in business especially if you want to do 4K. Sure you can say not everyone wants to work in 4K, but 4K is the catchphrase in Red and Apple's marketing. The word 4K is used more in this video than 2K. Which words do you think your potential client is going to remember? I bet it's not proxy. This might be good marketing for Red, but is it good for you?
Jason Sinclair
Well-known member
Some times the problem with marketing is in the listening.
Marketing is about clearly communicating the benefits of your product in a concise way, that is if you have a product that clearly defines itself as beneficial.
Very few companies get this right for various reasons. In this particular case you are dealing with a complex system with many variables and also a lot of the industry is looking at loosing sales as a result and there is therefore a lot of "negative marketing" from the outside.
One of the benefits of the red camera is it shoots 4k at a price range which is unparalleled. This is the bottom line that sets it clearly apart from any other product available and why there is so much interest. It is a matter of ingenuity and dare i say genius.
But this is only one of the benefits and the point of this discussion.
The red camera shoots 4k red raw and when you shoot in 4k you get those 4k files. The camera technology is therefore designed to handle this.
Currently, the state of technology (outside of red) does not handle these 4k files in real time very well. The amount of information that is created with 4k files is massive and at 30 frames per second (or whatever your chosen frame rate is) this is just too much for your average computer system to do in real time.
What we are seeing though is computer systems that will be ready for this in the near future. In this case the red camera is ahead of its time. For people wanting future proofing this is another benefit.
In the meantime another great attribute is you get a QuickTime wrapper in 2k which can be taken directly into FCP that CAN be worked on in real time. That is what the myth buster scenario focused on. But, importantly, those 4k files are still there for you when you need them. It's not like they go away. You have 4k red raw and 2k proxies, both. So these files have a relationship and an important one at that in that, you can use the information in one to transfer to the other. for those that know the camera this might be old news but for new people this information is very important.
Most of the people investing in these cameras at the moment are clued up on what this means. They are "tech heads" to some degree. They see and know the value. For others in this creative industry, they may need simpler ways of understanding. However, the purpose of mythbusters is, and i must say I’m not involved with that production (other than advising Ted he should perhaps do this some months ago) and only can assume from my own perception, is to combat the disinformation or "myths" that are surrounding this camera through lack of information and deceptive means from competitors and (often overlooked) people who do not have an interest in benefiting from the red workflow. (have invested hundreds of thousands in technology that is substandard in comparison)
The point remains. You have a system that shoots 4k and you can do an offline at home in 2k. You can send it to a festival and they say Oh, my god this is brilliant send us a print! You then can get the xml file, and go to an online suite (that can handle 4k) and print. There's obviously lots of choices in regards to color correction, etc... but simply it can be done and at very little cost compared to anything available. And that won't be for everyone, there are many other choices, that just the max you can do.
So, when i watch the myth busters video I see nothing but good old honest and straightforward communication. It's up to red to market their camera, not to market the industry as a whole. If red is ready for 4k for semi pro market and no one else is, it's really not their fault. They have the product available and they have a right to market that. That is what they have worked years towards and that is what they succeed in using their intelligent approach to create something that didn't exist as a possibility for. You can't blame them for being ahead of their time.
If you see something else, you really have to question your own motivations i believe.
I think people that are ignorant deserve to be ignorant but people who are genuine don't deserve the disinformation from the fear mongers. Somehow, i think any intelligent, creative and "in tune" person will see through all the BS anyway.
Marketing is about clearly communicating the benefits of your product in a concise way, that is if you have a product that clearly defines itself as beneficial.
Very few companies get this right for various reasons. In this particular case you are dealing with a complex system with many variables and also a lot of the industry is looking at loosing sales as a result and there is therefore a lot of "negative marketing" from the outside.
One of the benefits of the red camera is it shoots 4k at a price range which is unparalleled. This is the bottom line that sets it clearly apart from any other product available and why there is so much interest. It is a matter of ingenuity and dare i say genius.
But this is only one of the benefits and the point of this discussion.
The red camera shoots 4k red raw and when you shoot in 4k you get those 4k files. The camera technology is therefore designed to handle this.
Currently, the state of technology (outside of red) does not handle these 4k files in real time very well. The amount of information that is created with 4k files is massive and at 30 frames per second (or whatever your chosen frame rate is) this is just too much for your average computer system to do in real time.
What we are seeing though is computer systems that will be ready for this in the near future. In this case the red camera is ahead of its time. For people wanting future proofing this is another benefit.
In the meantime another great attribute is you get a QuickTime wrapper in 2k which can be taken directly into FCP that CAN be worked on in real time. That is what the myth buster scenario focused on. But, importantly, those 4k files are still there for you when you need them. It's not like they go away. You have 4k red raw and 2k proxies, both. So these files have a relationship and an important one at that in that, you can use the information in one to transfer to the other. for those that know the camera this might be old news but for new people this information is very important.
Most of the people investing in these cameras at the moment are clued up on what this means. They are "tech heads" to some degree. They see and know the value. For others in this creative industry, they may need simpler ways of understanding. However, the purpose of mythbusters is, and i must say I’m not involved with that production (other than advising Ted he should perhaps do this some months ago) and only can assume from my own perception, is to combat the disinformation or "myths" that are surrounding this camera through lack of information and deceptive means from competitors and (often overlooked) people who do not have an interest in benefiting from the red workflow. (have invested hundreds of thousands in technology that is substandard in comparison)
The point remains. You have a system that shoots 4k and you can do an offline at home in 2k. You can send it to a festival and they say Oh, my god this is brilliant send us a print! You then can get the xml file, and go to an online suite (that can handle 4k) and print. There's obviously lots of choices in regards to color correction, etc... but simply it can be done and at very little cost compared to anything available. And that won't be for everyone, there are many other choices, that just the max you can do.
So, when i watch the myth busters video I see nothing but good old honest and straightforward communication. It's up to red to market their camera, not to market the industry as a whole. If red is ready for 4k for semi pro market and no one else is, it's really not their fault. They have the product available and they have a right to market that. That is what they have worked years towards and that is what they succeed in using their intelligent approach to create something that didn't exist as a possibility for. You can't blame them for being ahead of their time.
If you see something else, you really have to question your own motivations i believe.
I think people that are ignorant deserve to be ignorant but people who are genuine don't deserve the disinformation from the fear mongers. Somehow, i think any intelligent, creative and "in tune" person will see through all the BS anyway.
Kevin Wild
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Can anyone tell me which lens was used with the A-cam for the Mythbusters video? Was it the 18-50 from RED?
There was a significant difference between the A-cam and B-cam in quality. Was there a reason that was done intentionally (darker for text to go over)? The A-cam made me excited to buy the RED (#2150), the B-cam...well...:tongue:
Thanks in advance.
There was a significant difference between the A-cam and B-cam in quality. Was there a reason that was done intentionally (darker for text to go over)? The A-cam made me excited to buy the RED (#2150), the B-cam...well...:tongue:
Thanks in advance.
Lucas Wilson
REDuser Sponsor
Maybe they should describe it as a Pablo suite which has a FCP work station in it?
Catpants (and I can't believe I'm writing to 'catpants' instead of a real name) - have you ever been in that theater at Plaster City?
I'd guess not. If you had actually been there, or maybe picked up the phone and called them, they could tell you what it is - instead of assuming some kind of deception or misleading.
It is a Pablo Suite
It is a Final Cut Suite
It is a SCRATCH Suite.
The truth is that all of the actual CPUs are in their machine room, and they have very good KVM systems that extend everything into the theater.
When Ian is coloring, it is a Pablo Suite or a SCRATCH suite.
When Michael is editing, it is a Final Cut Suite.
All systems are tied into the KVM network, and are all tied into the projector, so that theater really can be a beautiful suite for whatever system is active at the time.
I don't see anything duplicitous or misleading about what Michael or Ted were saying.
Lucas
-----
VP of Standing Up For My Peeps
ASSIMILATE, inc.
LA, CA, USA