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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Red-mx vs red-one

Emery Wells

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Last week, Jason Diamond and I visited Michael Schrom & Company at Silvercup Studios in NY to do some side by side testing with Katabatics RED-MX #40 and Schroms RED ONE. This was a no frills technical test to see how these two sensors compare and the results are interesting to say the least.

This test was made possible thanks to the fantastic team over at Schrom:

Dir/DP: Michael Schrom
Exec Producer: Carl Sturges
Lighting Director: John McCabe
Camera Assistant: Woody

First let me say we have been shooting with the RED ONE for two years with phenomenal results but the RED-MX feels like a whole new camera. My high level takeaway is the MX delivers on most if not all of what RED has been claiming. We found that a comfortable rating for the camera was ASA 400. Now Im not DP and I know every DP has there own special magic to get the most out of the camera but with the first gen RED ONE I found ASA 320 to be a generous rating under most circumstances and If I wanted to get the cleanest possible image out of the sensor I tended to rate at 200. So I feel like the MX gives you an extra stop, HOWEVER, you can push this sensor FAR beyond what the Mysterium could handle. ASA 800 - 2000 are very 'comfortable.' You wouldn't use this on a commercial but for features, low light, run and gun, whatever, 800 - 2000 is a very usable range. Even beyond 2000 you can get acceptable results. In some of our testing we found that the LCD was seeing more detail than our EYES could see in the room. No joke, no exaggeration.

I chose to process everything in RedCine-X using Red Color/Red Gamma for both the RED-ONE and RED-MX footage. We felt this would give the best apples to apples comparison but on a side note, Im really loving the new Red Color/Red Gamma. It does breath new life into old footage.

First up - Noise Test. For this I took a 100% crop of a 4K Tiff processed out of RedCine-X and lined up every ASA we shot for RED-MX and RED-ONE.

This image was scaled down to better fit in the forum. Download the FULL RES TIFF to really see whats going on here.

The obvious thing is noise. There is less of it in the MX. Additionally, I've noticed the MX is natively warmer than the Mysterium. Both cameras were reset to all factory settings before we got started and the metadata/processing were identical. There is a noticeable difference in color temperature between the two but I haven't heard RED mention this anywhere. As we went up in ASA on the MX sensor, everything got cooler until it eventually turned bright blue.

MX_18_grey_test_small.jpg


The temperature difference is also noticeable in the test images below. The RED ONE image appears 'muckier' than the MX which has a much more natural color reproduction. This is really positive because one if the things I and others haven't been crazy about is how RED handles skin tones. I think there is a markable improvement on the MX. Other interesting note is the RED ONE image looks about half a stop under. Both images had identical lenses (Arri Zeiss 100mm) @ T22. One of the things RED has mentioned about the MX is improved accuracy when used with external exposure monitoring tools like light meters, etc. The MX seemed to more accurately match what our light meter was telling us.

A001_C007_0302ST.0000054_small.jpg


B001_C007_030175.0000086_small.jpg






At the low end of ASA's the RED ONE seemed to perform better which makes sense because the middle grey has shifted in the MX. I wouldn't shoot ASA 200 on the MX. 320 seems like the comfortable low end.

A001_C001_0302KF.0000067_small.jpg


B001_C001_0301D7.0000084_small.jpg


A001_C002_0302N4.0000061_small.jpg


B001_C002_0301W6.0000063_small.jpg





We then wanted to really stress test the cameras so we turned the key light off.

A001_C014_03028M.0000086_small.jpg


B001_C008_0301NH.0000069_small.jpg




And then we turned off ALL lights and lit the scene with a single Kino bulb.

A001_C023_0302FF.0000119_small.jpg


B001_C018_0301EP.0000114_small.jpg



I have a lot more to publish as I do more tests this week. You also really need to see either 2K or 4K stills to really analyze these properly. I will try to get those up soon.
 
Thanks for the test...
 
I saw the blue shift noted in a similar test. I believe Jim chimed in and indicated that it would be addressed with a future firmware update... I'll see if I can dig up the post.

EDIT: Here's the quote from Jim -

Before anyone panics (too late?) on the calibration error... it only can be seen when stressing the exposure beyond normal limits. The calibration error is very small at normal exposures (can't be seen)... but grows exponentially as you move dramatically either way from center... like over/under tests at the extreme (like Brook's test).

The long and short is... shoot the current build and it looks fantastic. Shoot +3 or -5 and you will see the error. We expect a fix soon, certainly before the side by side tests with the new Arri cameras... :-)

It is easy to see why others are comfortable at 13 stops and we think there is more to be found.

Jim

And here's a link to the thread: http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=40579&page=2

Cheers,
Tim
 
We really learned a lot in this side by side about where the new sensor sits in the sweet spot vs the previous gen.
As always we expect bigger and better things from this sensor as the firmware rolls out to take full advantage of it and the new cam's roll out as well.

all in all anyone who gets the call to upgrade their existing REDOne(s) would be wise to jump in with both feet...
 
Fantastic.
 
I saw the blue shift noted in a similar test. I believe Jim chimed in and indicated that it would be addressed with a future firmware update... I'll see if I can dig up the post.

EDIT: Here's the quote from Jim -



And here's a link to the thread: http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=40579&page=2

Cheers,
Tim

Ah yes, I recalled reading that myself. As Jim says its really not an issue in the ASA ranges you'd actually be using, but it would have been nice to have tested with the firmware fix for this.
 
Thanks Emery,

Very VERY revealing test.

The advantage of the MX sensor over the M is huge :)

Antoine
 
It' just me or there is more head-room for the highlights in Red-One footage? Pay attention at the details in the blown out window, the Red-Mx is clipping the whites sooner that the Red One.

I see what you are saying, but the noise is improved so much on the mx that you can leave MUCH more room to protect your highlights without worrying that you're entering noisy territory. Practically, highlight clipping should be much less of an issue on the MX, even is academically it appears that there might be a negligible edge towards the M.
 
Emery... thanks for the test. It would be helpful to know which firmware build was on the M-X.

Unfortunately... we need you to duplicate these tests with a build we will release soon with a much improved calibration (as promised)... :-)

Jim
 
Emery... thanks for the test. It would be helpful to know which firmware build was on the M-X.

Unfortunately... we need you to duplicate these tests with a build we will release soon with a much improved calibration (as promised)... :-)

Jim

The firmware build on the M-X was the Build 30 that came back with the camera from RED.
We are happy to continue these tests, as we learn just as much from them as they provide outwardly. It's an integral process as I'm sure you know :yesnod:

Jason
 
Which build it is depends on when you got it. When you startup... it will tell you exactly which one it is. In the beginning... there are lots of update builds. I would recommend doing each one at this point.

Thanks again.

Jim
 
Hey Jim, the RED MX was on build 30.2.12 and as Woody mentioned the RED ONE was on build 21.4.1.

Id love to test again when the sensor is re-calibrated although to be fair, the most egregious blue shift was generally happening well beyond where I would feel comfortable shooting anyway.

That said, there is always that shot that needs to be saved from the depths, so in that case it could still be an issue. Im more interested to see if there are any changes in the usable 320-2000 range. I generally really liked the warmer characteristics of the MX. Colors appeared more vivid, natural, and alive. When you look at them side by side you really notice the difference.
 
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