RED Monstro HDRx, and Frame rate/proxy file problems! Please help!!!!

[Darren O'Mahoney]

Hello hello.
TL;DR: Red cine pro software seems to be playing back red footage recorded at 60fps, as 30fps when a monitor TV is plugged into my MacBook Pro. When the monitor is unplugged, it plays back (according to cine pro) at 60fps, and appears faster. The Avid DNxHD LB proxy files also seem to play back fast. BUT... the footage is of a helicopter pass by of some tress, and it seems too fast to the producers (it's not obvious which one is correct, people can't agree), so it might be wrong. The proxy files play in Premiere/Avid/VLC faster, but slower in Cine Pro software.

We need to make sure we are recording and playing back 60fps, and playing it back at the most accurate speed. Any help how to make sure that the proxy files aren't actually wrong/buggy, and are actually playing back too fast, and the Red Cine Pro footage is playing back at the correct slower speed? I was told that it was my MacBook, because it didn't have enough RAM, it was playing back the proxy files faster then they should (interpretation 60fps as 30fps in VLC/Prem/Avid etc). (laptop is 15inch Touchbar MacBook Pro with 16gb RAM).

We didn't notice till hours later, after trying to rule out RAM as the problem on a much much more powerful and RAM strong laptop, that the Red Cine Pro software says it's playing the 60fps back stuff as 30fps. which is why it appears slow, and the Proxy's appear correctly faster. But the producer is sure the Proxy files are too fast, much faster then she remembers flying in the helicopter. The footage says in Red cine pro 'recorded frame rate: 60fps. Also in premiere/avid/VLC, it says the proxy's are 60fps.

Is there any way to be really sure either way? It's so confusing, and took up hours of working on the RAM problem red herring, hours wasted, producers and director with the hump. Days lost to this problem, I also now look like a complete idiot. I posted a while ago about a RED/AVID workflow for a location edit.


HDRx MODE! Also if anyone also knows, if HDRx mode on RED cameras is limited to 30fps, or half of your project setting time base of 60fps? Trying to record 60fps footage in HDRx mode (not all the time, just odd occasion, but similar problem as above. The footage appears to be 30fps when in RED Cine Pro software, says 'recorded frame rate: 30fps'. But again, the proxy files play back faster then it does in the RED Cine Pro software. This could just be the A frame option of the HDRx mode, with the. X frame also being 30fps. Maybe the actual file played out/Proxy file is actually 60fps after all).
To make matters more confusing, the proxy files say they are 60fps. And play back double speed as the footage in the RED cinepro software, which plays at 30fps, and says that the project time base is 60fps, but the recording frame rate is 30fps.
Please help, its completely messing up our shoot and screwing me over!

 

[Phil Holland]

Heh. You clearly don't own the DSMC Field Ops Guide

First and foremost, make sure your project timebase is set at 59.94 for your frame rate. That will ensure your software and camera know what actual timebase you are targeting if you truly want 60fps playback.

If we're talking Premiere Pro CC, Avid, or whatever; inspect the element to ensure it is correctly detected as a 60fps clip with a timebase of 60fps.

If you are trying to shoot 60fps for slow motion in a 30fps or 24fps project though, that's a different thing. You need to ensure your timebase is what your project is and your footage will be at the correct frame rate whether overcranked or not. If in REDCINE-X Pro you are seeing footage not played back at the correct frame rate, but know you shot it at 60fps you can right click on a clip and change the source frame rate to the correct project timebase.

Side note, if you are pushing out 60fps and expecting 60fps playback on a small MacBook, that's going to be pretty darn demanding if you're about 1080p. Need more information regarding how you are hooking up the external monitor. All of this might be a hardware related issue where you actually can't pump out 60fps even.

HDRx halves your maximum frame rate and data rate as you are recording two streams at the same time. So if you're on Monstro which tops out at 8K 60fps and you have HDRx enabled, you will get max 30fps at 8K. This is clearly stated in the manual and my Field Ops Guide.


In all honesty, this all sounds like you're having timebase issues in your camera and need to set that up correctly on any shoot whether that's 23.98, 29.97, 25, 48, or 59.94fps. Luckily there's ways to fix much of this via metadata if you know you shot at the correct frame rate needed.

 

[Michael Tiemann]

Phil is spot-on as usual.

Timebase: the real-time recording/playback rate.

Frame rate: If frame-rate = timebase, then you are recording 1:1. If frame rate is less than timebase, you are under-cranking, and when played back at the timebase speed, everything will be sped up on playback. If frame rate is greater than timebase, you are over-cranking, and everything will be slowed down on playback.

Frame rates variable from 1 fps to 300fps, subject to maximum scan and data rate constraints. If the camera does not have the grunt to scan all the vertical pixels in time, or the grunt to handle the full aggregate data bandwidth of a given resolution at a given frame rate, it will back the frame rate down to a speed that is feasible, displaying that feasible frame rate in Yellow. If one reduces the resolution (vertically, horizontally, or both), the camera will increase the frame rate to whatever is feasible. If that feasible rate is less than the selected frame rate, it will continue to display in Yellow. If not, it will display in White.

Max frame rate is related to max data rate (which is 300MB/sec on top-of-the-line DSMC2 cameras and less on lower-level models). HDRx doubles the data rate (because it must record both an A and an X frame) and thus may change what the maximum feasible frame rate may be. But it doesn't change the time base. And if the frame rate displays in White, it means your selected frame rate is feasible. If not, it will display in Yellow, indicated that the camera is making a best effort (but also indicating that the camera is selecting the frame rate based on its own limitations, which may be different than what other cameras on the shoot are doing, depending on their capabilities).

If your Yellow frame rate is below the timebase, you will be under-cranking. If your Yellow frame rate is above the timebase, you will be over-cranking, but not by as much as your selected frame rate would normally do.

Ideally, both your timebase and frame rate are where you (and everybody else) expect them to be (with, or without, HDRx).