Stephen Williams
Well-known member
Hi Don,
Why not use still camera lenses, they have f stops and are cheap.
Stephen
Why not use still camera lenses, they have f stops and are cheap.
Stephen
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RED lenses - why not T stop
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Steve Gibby
Red Savant
In my post #11 I was the first one on this thread to suggest that RED consider giving RED lens buyers an option to order their lenses in a choice of T stops or F stops. I think its is wisdom by Jim Jannard to consider a T stop option for the RED lenses, as he has verified RED is considering. If T stops aren't a high priority to a purchaser and they can save some funds on the lenses by ordering F stops - fine. If T stops are a high priority for a purchaser and they don't mind paying an increased amount for that - fine. What none of us on this thread, except Jim Jannard, understand is exactly how each lens marking/calibration option affects the manufacturing time/expense and economies of scale for the lenses. RED has consistently offered a lot of features in their products for very reasonable prices. I don't see them changing that reasonable price philosophy now for the lenses unless there are factors we don't understand.
Directing and camera work? A certain portion of the overall motion media business is union or operates like union sets, with rigidly segmented jobs and job descriptions. Then there's the vast majority of the yearly total of motion media productions worldwide that are non-union and have smaller crews where each member may wear several work hats. RED is equally capable of being used in either type of those productions, and further capable of being used in a long list of cine style and EFP style genres and sub-genres. The narrative cinema/union/large crew scenario is but one of many profiles for potential RED One projects. There are significant numbers of professionals in the motion media industry who have decades of experience in international and national production across multiple genres - and have never done a union production, and have spread their skill sets horizontally and vertically to include producing, directing, editing, and camera work - and will be adopting RED One for their working scenarios. Those types are comfortable doing all the jobs on a tiny production one week, being the director on a production with a crew of 80 the next, being the DP or cinematographer on a large crew the following week, and the next week being strictly a producer pulling the strings to make a large crew production dance. Does that mean that they are lacking in knowledge or skills in any of those categories? Not necessarily. IMO some of the very best directors on the planet are ones who have also worked extensively as DPs, cinematographers, and editors - and vice versa. When you understand intimately all the jobs on location or on the set, IMO you can more effectively dance with the others on the crew - and if you're directing and the rest of the crew knows you're highly experienced in each of their jobs, then they tend to respect your leadership more deeply. All that said, beyond the obvious demands of directing, the trick is to surround yourself with a crew of highly-experienced professionals and let them do their thing. You simply steer them the direction you need to accomplish the needs of the story or program: you macro-manage, rather than micro-manage.
Directing and camera work? A certain portion of the overall motion media business is union or operates like union sets, with rigidly segmented jobs and job descriptions. Then there's the vast majority of the yearly total of motion media productions worldwide that are non-union and have smaller crews where each member may wear several work hats. RED is equally capable of being used in either type of those productions, and further capable of being used in a long list of cine style and EFP style genres and sub-genres. The narrative cinema/union/large crew scenario is but one of many profiles for potential RED One projects. There are significant numbers of professionals in the motion media industry who have decades of experience in international and national production across multiple genres - and have never done a union production, and have spread their skill sets horizontally and vertically to include producing, directing, editing, and camera work - and will be adopting RED One for their working scenarios. Those types are comfortable doing all the jobs on a tiny production one week, being the director on a production with a crew of 80 the next, being the DP or cinematographer on a large crew the following week, and the next week being strictly a producer pulling the strings to make a large crew production dance. Does that mean that they are lacking in knowledge or skills in any of those categories? Not necessarily. IMO some of the very best directors on the planet are ones who have also worked extensively as DPs, cinematographers, and editors - and vice versa. When you understand intimately all the jobs on location or on the set, IMO you can more effectively dance with the others on the crew - and if you're directing and the rest of the crew knows you're highly experienced in each of their jobs, then they tend to respect your leadership more deeply. All that said, beyond the obvious demands of directing, the trick is to surround yourself with a crew of highly-experienced professionals and let them do their thing. You simply steer them the direction you need to accomplish the needs of the story or program: you macro-manage, rather than micro-manage.
Good post this last one. That's the difference between to be an indy instead to work with a 'rigidly segmented union set'. IMHO, Red has always been the 1st option's choice. And working with F stops doesn't necessarily mean to go with short range or breathing handicap. An ENG operator uses F stop, not T stop. And he/she doesn't shoot with SLR glass. He/she just don't want to pay for something that he/she won't use at all.
I don't know not even any one cine-style operator over here. But I know a lot of ENG/EFP PROs among the Red reservation holders. This cine-style misconception can be not healthy or can even be harmful for the viability of this project. You cine-style guys don't represent in any way other than as yourselves and your own interests.
I don't know not even any one cine-style operator over here. But I know a lot of ENG/EFP PROs among the Red reservation holders. This cine-style misconception can be not healthy or can even be harmful for the viability of this project. You cine-style guys don't represent in any way other than as yourselves and your own interests.
David Mullen ASC
Moderator
Well, Don, obviously a cine-style shooter will see things from their perspective, just as an ENG/EFP-style shooter will see things from theirs. I don't think that's surprising -- we don't exactly share the same needs and priorities.
If you're trying to imply that the RED camera was "meant" mainly for the (clearly) larger ENG/EFP market, then why did Jim Jannard give the cameras to Peter Jackson to shoot a narrative "cine-style" demo with (shot by a DP using a light meter...)? This camera does not belong to one type of shooter or one type of production.
And this site is called Reduser, not Redowner. I plan on being a user, and who knows, if I have a financial windfall someday, maybe an owner... though ownership isn't really necessary for my work.
I'd also point out that "indies" shoot both film and digital. Matt Uhry, who has also brought up the notion of T-stops, is an indie DP. I mainly shoot non-studio-financed indie features. And we all shoot both film and digital, which is one reason why the RED camera is so exciting as a new high-quality imagemaking device.
I don't see why it's so controversial to suggest that there be an option to sell a separate set of RED lenses with T-stop marks. And if that doesn't happen, it's not a big deal. But I think we should be looking for more solutions that work for the widest variety of potential users -- not accusing people who make suggestions from a certain production perspective as being "harmful".
And if I sometimes give the impression that my particular shooting perspective is the only valid one, I apologize.
If you're trying to imply that the RED camera was "meant" mainly for the (clearly) larger ENG/EFP market, then why did Jim Jannard give the cameras to Peter Jackson to shoot a narrative "cine-style" demo with (shot by a DP using a light meter...)? This camera does not belong to one type of shooter or one type of production.
And this site is called Reduser, not Redowner. I plan on being a user, and who knows, if I have a financial windfall someday, maybe an owner... though ownership isn't really necessary for my work.
I'd also point out that "indies" shoot both film and digital. Matt Uhry, who has also brought up the notion of T-stops, is an indie DP. I mainly shoot non-studio-financed indie features. And we all shoot both film and digital, which is one reason why the RED camera is so exciting as a new high-quality imagemaking device.
I don't see why it's so controversial to suggest that there be an option to sell a separate set of RED lenses with T-stop marks. And if that doesn't happen, it's not a big deal. But I think we should be looking for more solutions that work for the widest variety of potential users -- not accusing people who make suggestions from a certain production perspective as being "harmful".
And if I sometimes give the impression that my particular shooting perspective is the only valid one, I apologize.
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Evin Grant
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David and friends, my instincts (and Jims comment's) tell me that we will not be getting T stops on Red's lenses. I agree that a T option would be nice but maybe there's another way we can get there. How hard would it be to measure the difference between the F and the T mark? If that diffrence could be determined accurately* then it would be a simple matter of creating a chart & sticker that could be downloaded and printed by those that needed it. For those that feel their lenses will be handled too roughly for a sticker then maybe a thin aluminum or plastic band could be epoxyed on instead. My point is that a little creativity will probably go alot further than whining will (I'm not talking about anyone specifically).
*The test could be as easy as setting up a Red one shooting a grey card with a set of rented T marked primes, match the focal lengths to the Red lens in question and measure the exposure using the in built waveform or histogram. The difference will give you your adjustment.
*The test could be as easy as setting up a Red one shooting a grey card with a set of rented T marked primes, match the focal lengths to the Red lens in question and measure the exposure using the in built waveform or histogram. The difference will give you your adjustment.
David Mullen ASC
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Yes, there are workarounds.
Poi Boy
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a big ten four Evin; kind of back where we started though. some prefer T for good reason, some like me don't care because of scopes....we'll just have to wait and see what the big guy decides.
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Steve Gibby
Red Savant
Evin,
I suggested the same thing as a solution to the issue in my Post #11, on Page 2 of this thread, starting with "or more economically...":
"...a good compromise would be for purchasers to be able to order their RED lenses in a choice of T or F stops, or more economically for RED, for both to be somehow marked on the lens."
Whether it is by the ability to order lenses with either T or F stop marking, or via post-manufacture re-marking, I think purchasers and users would like an alternative on lens marking. If it needs to be an effective workaround via post re-marking to hold the cost and time of delivery down on the lenses, then that will be a decision RED will make.
Being both a cine-style and EFP style shooter, I can definitely understand both sides of this issue. There are actually a surprising number of "both styles" shooters on RED User - including Dave Mullen and many, many others here. I think that being a "both styles" shooter dovetails perfectly with the "both styles" flexible design of RED One - and unlocks the full revenue generating potential of RED One.
The core philosophy of RED from day one has been for their products to have maximum flexibility, utility, and scalability across a broad range of cine-style and EFP style genres of production. Original T or F marking options, or an effective post-manufacture workaround procedure or kit to achieve that, fits in nicely with RED's philosophy.
Evin, I know you, David, and most others here already understand what I mentioned above, but I simply posted it more as a general observation on the nature of RED and RED One for newcomers who are trying to get up to speed on the capabilities and use of the camera system.
As cimematographers/photographers/videographers we're all "lensaholics" and "glassaholics", so each detail of our lenses is naturally important to us. If it isn't, we're in the wrong profession! The cool thing is that Jim Jannard is a longtime admitted lensaholic/glassaholic so he speaks our language and is definitely listening.
I suggested the same thing as a solution to the issue in my Post #11, on Page 2 of this thread, starting with "or more economically...":
"...a good compromise would be for purchasers to be able to order their RED lenses in a choice of T or F stops, or more economically for RED, for both to be somehow marked on the lens."
Whether it is by the ability to order lenses with either T or F stop marking, or via post-manufacture re-marking, I think purchasers and users would like an alternative on lens marking. If it needs to be an effective workaround via post re-marking to hold the cost and time of delivery down on the lenses, then that will be a decision RED will make.
Being both a cine-style and EFP style shooter, I can definitely understand both sides of this issue. There are actually a surprising number of "both styles" shooters on RED User - including Dave Mullen and many, many others here. I think that being a "both styles" shooter dovetails perfectly with the "both styles" flexible design of RED One - and unlocks the full revenue generating potential of RED One.
The core philosophy of RED from day one has been for their products to have maximum flexibility, utility, and scalability across a broad range of cine-style and EFP style genres of production. Original T or F marking options, or an effective post-manufacture workaround procedure or kit to achieve that, fits in nicely with RED's philosophy.
Evin, I know you, David, and most others here already understand what I mentioned above, but I simply posted it more as a general observation on the nature of RED and RED One for newcomers who are trying to get up to speed on the capabilities and use of the camera system.
As cimematographers/photographers/videographers we're all "lensaholics" and "glassaholics", so each detail of our lenses is naturally important to us. If it isn't, we're in the wrong profession! The cool thing is that Jim Jannard is a longtime admitted lensaholic/glassaholic so he speaks our language and is definitely listening.
Leo Ticheli
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A bit ironic that I just finished a two-camera shoot and I've got another next week, but I shoot almost exclusively single camera and I don't set my stop with a light meter. I rely on the semi-toy waveform monitor in my displays and, primarily, my eyes, so I don't need T-stops in my HD work.
Even with multiple HD cameras, I don't set the stop from single reading. I'm sure that the work David Mullen does makes this method very important, but it's not a part of the jobs I do.
I think the real value of T-stops would be for those who own and shoot both HD and film.
I'm certain I don't understand the complexities of lens manufacture, but it seems that it would be easy to engrave the rings with F-stops on one side and T-stops on the other so one could use whichever is appropriate for either stop or depth of field calculation.
By the way, with the shallower depth of field we'll be enjoying, I'll have to get used to pulling out the DOF calculator again! Even so, if it doesn't look right, it's not right, no matter what the chart says!
Alternatively, I would think an optical house could calibrate and engrave the other side of the ring with T-stops. As inexpensive as the Red lenses are, this seems like a small price to pay for the added value of the lenses for those who need it.
Good shooting and best regards,
Leo
Even with multiple HD cameras, I don't set the stop from single reading. I'm sure that the work David Mullen does makes this method very important, but it's not a part of the jobs I do.
I think the real value of T-stops would be for those who own and shoot both HD and film.
I'm certain I don't understand the complexities of lens manufacture, but it seems that it would be easy to engrave the rings with F-stops on one side and T-stops on the other so one could use whichever is appropriate for either stop or depth of field calculation.
By the way, with the shallower depth of field we'll be enjoying, I'll have to get used to pulling out the DOF calculator again! Even so, if it doesn't look right, it's not right, no matter what the chart says!
Alternatively, I would think an optical house could calibrate and engrave the other side of the ring with T-stops. As inexpensive as the Red lenses are, this seems like a small price to pay for the added value of the lenses for those who need it.
Good shooting and best regards,
Leo
David Mullen ASC
Moderator
To be more accurate, you don't actually use either f-stops or T-stop marks -- in other words, it would have no affect for you if the lens had T-stop marks on it, as many of the cine-style HD lenses already do (Zeiss DigiPrimes, for example.) So a T-stop mark would serve both types of shooters -- the only real argument presented here against them has been the higher cost. No one here has said that they specifically use or need f-stop marks instead of T-stop marks; what they have been saying that neither type of mark is critical for the way they work and in that case, they would prefer whatever kept the RED lenses at the original price.
Steve Gibby
Red Savant
Virtually all of my current and future work is and will be digital. When using RED One, I plan to shoot almost everything in REDCODE RAW for the flexibility it gives me at acquisition and the processing options with REDCINE before it goes to post. Also, stock footage is an important part of my business, and shooting REDCODE RAW and delivering it to my stock houses gives them great flexibility in how licensees can order footage.
Assuming that the RED EVF and LCD dance well with RED One's histogram, waveform, and zebra, something I'm comfortable so far in assuming, then I'll usually be setting exposure via the use of the histogram and/or zebra, with added use of the waveform when I have time.
Assuming RED One's Magic Focus works very effectively with the EVF and LCD, something I'm also comfortable in assuming so far, I'll rack/pull focus using Magic Focus with the EVF and LCD.
If I can get away with it, I love working in a WYSIWYG mode. Hopefully RED One's features will fully enable that mode of working.
We'll know RED One's capabilities shortly when a diverse team of pros tests out my RED #8 in Los Angeles. The full team list will be posted here on RED User this month. I can say now that Evin Grant has accepted my invitation to direct the testing. Several professionals from a very diverse array of motion media backgrounds are on the testing team. Their names will be familiar to everyone here on RED User. More invitations will be forthcoming this month.
Assuming that the RED EVF and LCD dance well with RED One's histogram, waveform, and zebra, something I'm comfortable so far in assuming, then I'll usually be setting exposure via the use of the histogram and/or zebra, with added use of the waveform when I have time.
Assuming RED One's Magic Focus works very effectively with the EVF and LCD, something I'm also comfortable in assuming so far, I'll rack/pull focus using Magic Focus with the EVF and LCD.
If I can get away with it, I love working in a WYSIWYG mode. Hopefully RED One's features will fully enable that mode of working.
We'll know RED One's capabilities shortly when a diverse team of pros tests out my RED #8 in Los Angeles. The full team list will be posted here on RED User this month. I can say now that Evin Grant has accepted my invitation to direct the testing. Several professionals from a very diverse array of motion media backgrounds are on the testing team. Their names will be familiar to everyone here on RED User. More invitations will be forthcoming this month.
Leo Ticheli
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To be more accurate, you don't actually use either f-stops or T-stop marks -- in other words, it would have no affect for you if the lens had T-stop marks on it, as many of the cine-style HD lenses already do (Zeiss DigiPrimes, for example.) QUOTE]
Absolutely true. Since I almost never consult the DOF calculator and don't set by meter, the barrel could be smooth!
For that matter, I almost never stop down past f2.8 unless I'm shooting a table top and even then I'm usually wide open.
Of course that's all with my 2/3" imager. I haven't shot a foot of film in five years, so I'll be back in 35MM mode with the Red and getting to know f5.6 again!After all, when the crazy talent is moving all over the place you've got to give the focus puller a break!
Good shooting and best regards,
Leo
I'm not sure what you mean... There are many of people who usually work in "Cine Style" who are reservation holders. We are also the likely the majority of customers for Red's lenses, we'll be using the larger 4k area of the sensor and generally work in a style that will benefit the most from more expensive cine style lenses as opposed to a set of Nikons or converted B4 zooms.
The Industry or Hollywood way of working is being unfairly portrayed here by people who may not have experienced it. It's not an appropriate way to work for all shoots, but much of what you actually see on a TV or movie screen was made in this way.
Job descriptions are there so that I can show up on a commercial in Burbank, Birmingham, Buenos Aires, or Bangkok and get the first shot off in an hour, knowing who I need to have the producer hire and what everybody should be able to do. If we mixed up what everybody does and what we call it the system breaks. If you make personal films in your basement ( I do this too ) don't let it any of this bother you, go downstairs and get to work.
How does this relate to T stops ? It's an industry standard. Can I live with f-stops ? Sure, but it's not what we use, and there are sound reasons for that have already been explained on this thread.
Hurl your barbs...
Matt Uhry
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Matt Uhry;48566 If you make personal films in your basement ( I do this too ) don't let it any of this bother you said:
Some basement little productions huh. Are you sure these are skeletons from your closet you want mentioned here. Some taboo little projects.:blink:
Heck I'll take 3 copies of each Blue ray please.:tongue:
Ok. I think the problem is more around the philosophy of this particular device (camera project) than everything else. Different priorities, different needs, right? Since the beginning, this project has been what we're working for. I just adhere to this reservation because it was noticed for a friend of mine that now there would be a digital 35mm ENG/EFP camera. Better than 2/3", better than any prosumer one. That's why I am here. That's why I have my money on a reservation.
A few others (other interests) can be harmful to our investment in any way other than as a different outcome for our priorities and needs.
A few others (other interests) can be harmful to our investment in any way other than as a different outcome for our priorities and needs.
Hey Don, we all share your quest for quality and we all secretly want a custom camera exactly designed for out needs, mine would dispense perfect espressos from a tube near the EVF and have a cold IPA ready at wrap each day.
I've shot my fair share of ENG and EFP style shoots, from 2 seasons of "Real Stories of the Highway Patrol" a few doc's even more recently the "7 days in a Sentra" ad campaign for Nissan.
I don't think that the Red will be any better suited for this kind of work than ENG cameras are for making features. Yes, of course it's possible, and lots of people will do it, but it's not going to be optimal. What 35mm format zoom is going to equal the range and ease of use of a 22x7.6 with a rocker zoom and a nifty 2x extender built in?
Personally, if I was doing lots of broadcast or industrial work, and not film style shooting I would consider other cameras, a HPX 500 if I was into data and the F900R if I was a tapehead.
Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com
I Bloom
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My feeling is that T-stops are imperative. I still plan to shoot film after I start shooting RED (for many reasons, overcranking is one) my goal is to make it possible to do this with my package by only adding a film body and magazines, maybe batteries. For that reason, I need RED lenses to compete with Zeiss Mark II's, they can be a bit slower than Superspeeds or Ultraprimes, but they need to be film ready, not video ready.
That's my two cents.
IBloom
That's my two cents.
IBloom
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