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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

RED lenses Sigmas?

Does rehousing have any positive efffects over image quality?

Essentially what I'm asking is if you bought the Sigma lenses and the Birger Sigma mount; assuming it works as advertised wouldn't you have the equivalent of the Red lenses/ff but a hell of a lot chaper?

I'm probably sticking with Canon primes. It all rests on how well the Birger performs.
 
darkline said:
Does rehousing have any positive efffects over image quality?

Essentially what I'm asking is if you bought the Sigma lenses and the Birger Sigma mount; assuming it works as advertised wouldn't you have the equivalent of the Red lenses/ff but a hell of a lot chaper?
Click to expand...

Hi,

If the rehousing was done very well then the lens could be optimized, however for the price of the rehousing I doubt the lenses get very many hours individule treatment.

A Birger mount with still lenses, could be the answer. I have not seen one so I cant say either way.

Stephen
 
Hi Stephen,

Thanks very much for your answer. I think we'll have to wait and see, but it is seeming like a really good option.
 
Stephen Williams said:
A Birger mount with still lenses, could be the answer. I have not seen one so I cant say either way.
Click to expand...

We were leaning toward buying Red glass, but now we've reserved a Birger mount and will probably use Canon lenses for most of our stuff. Why? Because for the price of just Red's 18-50mm zoom, we can get the Birger mount and several EF/EF-S zooms and primes, including stuff a lot faster than T3, that will give us a lot more flexibility.

Sure, the mechanics won't be as good, but people do manage to pull focus with photo lenses. And if it turns out you really can do smooth focus pulls electronically though the Birger mount, then the whole issue of mechanics is essentially moot.

If we ever have $100K to drop on glass, we'll swap the PL mount back on. Maybe. If electronic focus pulling really works well, and if there are eventually more sophisticated ways to control it than playing with a knob (like programing your marks into a laptop, or the smart autofocus system Birger has talked about), it might be nearly impossible to give it up.
 
Chris Kenny said:
We were leaning toward buying Red glass, but now we've reserved a Birger mount and will probably use Canon lenses for most of our stuff. Why? Because for the price of just Red's 18-50mm zoom, we can get the Birger mount and several EF/EF-S zooms and primes, including stuff a lot faster than T3, that will give us a lot more flexibility.

Sure, the mechanics won't be as good, but people do manage to pull focus with photo lenses. And if it turns out you really can do smooth focus pulls electronically though the Birger mount, then the whole issue of mechanics is essentially moot.

If we ever have $100K to drop on glass, we'll swap the PL mount back on. Maybe. If electronic focus pulling really works well, and if there are eventually more sophisticated ways to control it than playing with a knob (like programing your marks into a laptop, or the smart autofocus system Birger has talked about), it might be nearly impossible to give it up.
Click to expand...
I share your sentiments exactly. If (and that's a big IF) the Birger mount works well, there will be very few reasons for the budget-minded indie filmmaker to splurge on expensive PL mount lenses.
 
kinobairn said:
So, besides being rehoused Sigmas, how are the Red Lenses performing?
Click to expand...

Hi,

Optically as you would expect, there are many reports on that lens on photography web sites. It's fine for what it is.

Mechanically, there are some issues that have been mentioned here before.

Stephen
 
darkline said:
Does rehousing have any positive efffects over image quality?

Essentially what I'm asking is if you bought the Sigma lenses and the Birger Sigma mount; assuming it works as advertised wouldn't you have the equivalent of the Red lenses/ff but a hell of a lot chaper?

I'm probably sticking with Canon primes. It all rests on how well the Birger performs.
Click to expand...

Depends on whether the Sigma lens holds focus while zooming. One of the reasons the RED zooms are so much more expensive than the Sigmas compared to the 300mm could be that they had to compensate for that mechanically.

Also the distance marks on the Sigma lens are probably worthless for focus pulling.

Most comments I have heard about Sigma lenses is that the glass is essentially fine but that Sigma has problems with QC and housings. That could be solved by RED choosing the best glass and the new housings.
 
Stephen Williams said:
Hi,

FYI Primos are not just rehoused, Panavision asked ELCAN to design a completely new lens series for them, based on their specifications (focal lenghts, speed, etc...). Obvioulsy they have the Leica look, but they are faster (for most part) and there are more focal lenghts than in the Leica stills lens series, with the same aperture setting all the way through.

Stephen
Click to expand...

I have heard from 2 different ex-panavision employees ( one that was involved in rehousing) that they're basically stock leicas with modified coatings. The nikon bases lenses were pretty much stock that they would buy secretly so no one would find out.
 
reality said:
I have heard from 2 different ex-panavision employees ( one that was involved in rehousing) that they're basically stock leicas with modified coatings. The nikon bases lenses were pretty much stock that they would buy secretly so no one would find out.
Click to expand...


If it's true then sounds good.
Even not rehoused Leica like a still photo lens could be a good option with
Birger mount and R adapter on RED.

And now to go a bit further if somebody would try out to make Leica M adapter for RED then we would get
option to attach Leica 50 mm f/1.0 Noctilux.

That could be a really absolutely fantastic!!!

If you could imagine to get with your RED something like this at the photo below.

caring.jpg

Caring, Toronto — August, 2002
Leica M7 and 50mm f/1.0 on Fuji Superia X-Tra 400. 1/30 sec @ f/1.0

More>>>

Then you would not need desperately to get Arri/Zeiss Master prime lens, Super speeds or similar...

With RED ISO 320 you would be fine and always have this lens in your private lens stock.
 
Panavision Primos

Panavision Primos

Firstly its insulting to people like Iain Neil who won scientific technical awards from the Academy to suggest Primos are just re-housed Leica lenses, they are not. The original lenses were made in Canada by Leitz under contract to Panavision designs. Panavision then switched mechanical manufacture in-house only sourcing optical glass and doing all final assembly in-house. Panavision like every other lens manufacturer sources components from various suppliers and has skilled lens designers and technicians making its optics. Yes from time to time specialized non Primo lenses use stills glass but by and large all the lenses are purpose built.

The first company to re-house Leica lenses for cinematography was Joe Dunton Cameras and namely John Venables and Jeff Allen in the early 1980s since then everyone has had a go at re-housing them. They are extremely good lenses but optically / mechanically not in the same league as Primos, Cooke S4 or Zeiss Ultra / Master Primes sorry to disappoint but in optics you get what you pay for their are no short cuts.
 
Nova Invicta said:
Firstly its insulting to people like Iain Neil who won scientific technical awards from the Academy to suggest Primos are just re-housed Leica lenses, they are not. The original lenses were made in Canada by Leitz under contract to Panavision designs. Panavision then switched mechanical manufacture in-house only sourcing optical glass and doing all final assembly in-house. Panavision like every other lens manufacturer sources components from various suppliers and has skilled lens designers and technicians making its optics. Yes from time to time specialized non Primo lenses use stills glass but by and large all the lenses are purpose built.

The first company to re-house Leica lenses for cinematography was Joe Dunton Cameras and namely John Venables and Jeff Allen in the early 1980s since then everyone has had a go at re-housing them. They are extremely good lenses but optically / mechanically not in the same league as Primos, Cooke S4 or Zeiss Ultra / Master Primes sorry to disappoint but in optics you get what you pay for their are no short cuts.
Click to expand...


I hope that nobody here have said that Panavision Primo L lenses are just simply rehoused Leica lenses. So no any reason to be insulted. About how Panavision or any other lens manufacture build their lenses we only can guess. Also we have the info like outsiders and for sure nobody here is an insider from any lens manufacture that participates in our discussions. That should be clear.

All it was about a guess that RED rehousing Sigma and it's ok and affordable. The another idea was if they (RED) want to get a higher quality lenses that could get more respect from the industry maybe they (RED) could ask Leica in Germany/Switzerland to get some glass for rehousing.

That's all.

No insulting anybody here, please.

One more thing:

The latest re-housing/re-barreling of Leica R lenses was done by DALSA.>>

David Stump, ASC:

"...I employed the new set of Leica lenses thet were built especially for the Dalsa..."

>>more>>The Trident movie 4K panel discussion>WATCH THE VIDEO>>

The Trident movie>>>
 
Chris Kenny said:
If we ever have $100K to drop on glass, we'll swap the PL mount back on. Maybe. If electronic focus pulling really works well, and if there are eventually more sophisticated ways to control it than playing with a knob (like programing your marks into a laptop, or the smart autofocus system Birger has talked about), it might be nearly impossible to give it up.
Click to expand...

Chris,
Probabaly you have missed another factor, "breathing", another reason still to burn our money for Cine lenses.
 
this thread gets my vote for most mis- and ill-informed.

first of all, we don't know who the lens manufacturer is.

second, sigma is perfectly capable of producing "L" quality glass. i have the best sigma lenses and some of the best canon glass, and the difference is negligible. most of you making this comparison are doing it on reputation and repeating internet rumor-mongering, not from actually using the best glass of both of these players.

even canon can't compete with canon at the level of "best." the best glass they have probably ever produced is the 200mm 1.8, and they stopped manufacturing it. what constitutes the "best" lens is as much a function of market positioning and price point as it is technological competence. it's useless to discuss lens "quality" as if it were somehow de-leveraged from the marketing realities of these lenses.

from what i have seen so far, there is nothing out there that can compete with RED lenses for clarity and sharpness at their price point, period. that's way more important than who the manufacturer is....we'll see how the comparisons play out once the birger mount is in some competent hands. i'm betting that if you stacked the best sigma lenses against the best canon glass (and i plan to do so...), maybe, just maybe, a small handful of people here would be able to distinguish one from the other.
 
Nobody except RED knows if the RED's are rehoused Sigmas. And even then it could easily be that Sigma is using different standards for RED, so testing is the only way to go. It just occurred to me that Sigma is the only company that is producing lenses with the same specs as RED. And it could explain some of the characteristics of the RED lenses (like breathing and sharpness) that people have seen.
 
sander kamp said:
Nobody except RED knows if the RED's are rehoused Sigmas. And even then it could easily be that Sigma is using different standards for RED, so testing is the only way to go. It just occurred to me that Sigma is the only company that is producing lenses with the same specs as RED. And it could explain some of the characteristics of the RED lenses (like breathing and sharpness) that people have seen.
Click to expand...

Hi,

Having 2 eyes and a brain, I can deduce that the Red 18-50 zoom is based on a Sigma lens.

YMMV

Stephen
 
At least red decided to go with sigma's and not leica's. The leica's are the real crap lenses.
 
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