RED-Key (security proposal for RED cameras)

[Giancarlo Bianchi]

I Propose Ilok

I Propose Ilok

The thing is, if you can record it into a SD card, people who steal the camera also can.
I think this is a good chance to give ours cameras USB port some work to do, with a red programed Ilok.
We "buy" it from Red, they program it with our serial number and names (to give the counter code). And if we happen to loose it, red could send us another one to our original shipping adress.

I also like Martins idea, but this would have to extent to final cut plugin and adobe. Not to scratch or any other high end software, becuase if someone is stealing a camera, my beth is they aint going highend anyways.

 

[Tim Hole]

You could just hire me as a full time RED-MINDER...as long as I can use the camera on evenings and weekends...plus two weeks in the summer holidays.

Is this something that you would like to see all RED cameras using?

 

[Peter Majtan]

The thing is, if you can record it into a SD card, people who steal the camera also can.

Not really, because the "key" will be generated with the custom SW using personal information and password selected by each individual owner. One key will not unlock another protected camera...

I think this is a good chance to give ours cameras USB port some work to do, with a red programed Ilok.

USB could work as well, but it will only add another thing "sticking out" from the body. The SD slot is well hidden an does not obstruct...

We "buy" it from Red, they program it with our serial number and names (to give the counter code). And if we happen to loose it, red could send us another one to our original shipping adress.

This will not work, as You would depend on physical shipping from RED. In our case - even if You lose the RED-Key - You can just buy another SD card and generate new RED-Key with the SW downloaded from (private login on) red.com and with Your personal info & password You have chosen...

I also like Martins idea, but this would have to extent to final cut plugin and adobe. Not to scratch or any other high end software, becuase if someone is stealing a camera, my beth is they aint going highend anyways.

This could be easily implemented in all 3-rd party plugins and SW. I would even force the "High-End" SW to comply. No exceptions...

Just my two pesos...

Peter

 

[Ivan G]

If Red decides to implement this into their system, # of boots is cool but it must be able to be set to a world clock. And alert that it will shut down right before it reaches expiration.

Nice job Peter!

 

[Ryan Valle]

I think a RED Key is a really good idea which should be implemented but should be implemented correctly. I didnt read through the threads, but glanced at certain ones and it seems to me one of the bigger issues is being able to generate a secure key for the owner which can not be easily hacked and/or copied.

I was thinking about this and what if on the next build, the camera has a software program built in to generate a code right after installation of a build. The code would be transfered to an SD card in a proprietary format which only a RED camera would be able to read properly. This process can only be done once. In the case that the key was lost, the camera would have to be re-sent to RED to "reset" the code system. This can not be done without proper proof that the camera is being reset by its rightful owner.

Note: I don't own a RED but just thought this out based on things that I know about it so it is possible that there are aspects in my idea that won't work or are just plain crazy, but its just a thought that may be a good one or help influence someone else's thought.

 

[Peter Majtan]

Ivan, every time You boot - you will be notified how many more boots (or how much time) is left before locking the camera (when RED-Key is activated). Also - about world clock. There are "cheap" watches that keep their time synchronized with the atomic signal to the precision of couple of seconds. This is not enough for time-code application, but could help greatly with general time & date upkeep. This should not cost much and will be immune from time-tampering...

Ryan - only solution that will not involve physical shipping to RED will ever be accepted...

Thanks everyone so far for the feedback - keep it coming, I think we are onto something here. I would to hear any feedback from RED-TEAM. Brent?

Peter

 

[Brian Chapman]

RED-Key

RED-Key

I like the idea in concept and in general use it'd fly. But what happens if you have the key activated and your on a documentary shoot and bouncing from country to country and you lose your key, your shoot would be screwed by it if you had to boot up a number of times over your limit.

Plus then there's the incentive to swipe the key for use on other cameras. Or if you prove to make it for that camera only, the option comes up of "well i'll rent the camera for a day and make a copy of the key (just like cloning a cel phone chip or a credit card).

Good idea though, lots of effort into it. But a real creative thief will always find a way around security protocols.

Now if it was imbedded into the programming to send the cameras ID's for updating, as someone stated in the Boston thread, and alerted the bomb squad that the camera has synched up to the net (and where), that'd be great. Give the authorities a heads up.

 

[Conrad Hunziker]

I like the idea in concept and in general use it'd fly. But what happens if you have the key activated and your on a documentary shoot and bouncing from country to country and you lose your key, your shoot would be screwed by it if you had to boot up a number of times over your limit.

Plus then there's the incentive to swipe the key for use on other cameras. Or if you prove to make it for that camera only, the option comes up of "well i'll rent the camera for a day and make a copy of the key (just like cloning a cel phone chip or a credit card).

I think this is the part of the idea that hasnt been flushed out yet. I havent read the boston thread, but I would guess that you would be able to create the key yourself, using a mac or pc laptop with internet connection.

- You would need to download the key from Red. To download it, you would need to login to a secure site. You would generate a key based on a password you give (not the login password, but another password), and the key would be specific to your cameras.

- You would download the key generated from the website. Its just a simple text file.

- The generated key would then be placed in a file on a FAT32 formatted SD card, and read by the camera during boot.

- When read you would need to enter the password and it would only then enable the security menu, where you would setup the number of boots or duration of safe days (or combo thereof) and setup the current date/time. You would need to reboot without the SD card in for normal operation.

So, the SD card really doesnt matter - but the key file on it does. It would be specific to that camera (or a set of cameras), and to that password generated key used. Just having a SD card with a key would not activate a camera not owned by you.

In addition, you would need internet access to start the thing, and then just keep a copy of the key file in a safe place on your computer. (You would have a computer on your 'round the world doc!)

Now, heres why this whole idea wont work: Theres a significant amount of work and testing to be done to make it work. The key-generating website would need a lot of work to ensure that it correctly matches up owners with cameras. In addition, there have been a lot of sold cameras, so the keys would need to be made so after an owner sells a camera the keys are no longer valid.

This doesnt even count on the programming that would need to be done in camera to brick itself after a certain timeperiod, and the software would need to be fool-proof from the start, no beta software for this idea. Even though it is in Red's interest to make us happy, theres a significant amount of time and labor needed to make this happen. Its not really in Reds best interest to make this happen.

Now if it was imbedded into the programming to send the cameras ID's for updating, as someone stated in the Boston thread, and alerted the bomb squad that the camera has synched up to the net (and where), that'd be great. Give the authorities a heads up.

The problem here is that the camera never really syncs with the net. Right now, you load your update build onto a CF card and install it. Thats about as close to the net as the camera gets. Theres no internet or IP protocol involved at all, therefore no way for the software of a stolen camera to alert Red.

And dont forget that the software is right now behind a user/pass login. Therefore the cameras that are currently stolen will NOT be updated unless the thief also knows a user/pass or is helped by another red owner. Though not impossible, the possibilities of the camera software being updated after being stolen are small.

Really, the only way to find the cameras that are stolen now is via traditional means or by tracking the R3D files with camera IDs via something that is connected to the net (i.e. software on a editing computer)

 

[Jarred Land]

There are parts of this idea that are good and we just may steal .. but on a whole this is something that would take an incredible amount of resources and planning to implement properly... and time and resources are unfortunately something that we do not have alot of extra right now.

Ill add it to the list.. but just remember the list is long.

 

[Douglas Underdahl]

How about a simplification of this idea: camera PIN. When you boot the camera, it asks for your PIN, and then you punch in your number, which is a combination of Exit, Undo, Sensor, etc buttons. Just 4 "digits" would do it, I think. We're all used to doing this from our bank cards and other log in scenarios. Users could decide to enable or disable this function, and also change their PIN when the need arises. I had a door lock at NYU installed that worked this way.

 

[Giancarlo Bianchi]

You can just buy another SD card and generate new RED-Key with the SW downloaded from (private login on) red.com and with Your personal info & password You have chosen...

Well, in this case I`m totally in! Let`s just hope someone doesnt come up with a red keygen. But then again, people who steal would need to have some of our personal information.

 

[Ken Willinger]

How about a simplification of this idea: camera PIN. When you boot the camera, it asks for your PIN, and then you punch in your number, which is a combination of Exit, Undo, Sensor, etc buttons. Just 4 "digits" would do it, I think.

Sounds like a great idea Doug.

 

[JanneJansson]

No, I would not like this system.
There is always a chans that the system breaks and totally hangs during a job.
In this case you have just INCREASED the risk of failiure. If the cam get stolen, this system will NOT magically get you a new cam an continue shooting.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Peter, nice concept. I like parts of it a lot. But have to admit some things I don't like. I think the concept of X number of boot-ups is a bad one. This is something that can be entirely unpredictable, especially in rental situations.

Personally, I would like to see a strong form of camera ID or watermarking in the R3D files recorded by a camera. Then a process on the post side of things where RED's tools and plug-ins could lock-out rogue cameras. Same with firmware upgrades, new firmware updates would not load on rogue cameras.

I don't know how possible it is to implement such a program based on the current abilities of the RED One hardware. However, I would think it's do-able on some level.

We also have to accept that there are plenty of skilled hackers in the world. There is no protection scheme that can not be thwarted. At least I have never seen or heard of one. Which also leads back to a time and resources argument... I would much rather see RED dump their resources into progressing their offerings, rather than developing ways to offer customers some peace of mind from external forces outside RED's control.

Stolen camera? ...That's what insurance is for. Just be sure to notify RED so that the camera will be marked and never allowed to be upgraded, repaired or traded in.

 

[Stephen Williams]

Personally, I would like to see a strong form of camera ID or watermarking in the R3D files recorded by a camera. Then a process on the post side of things where RED's tools and plug-ins could lock-out rogue cameras. Same with firmware upgrades, new firmware updates would not load on rogue cameras.

.

Hi,

So if a camera gets stolen, all the footage previousely shot with that camera becomes useless. I am not sure I like the possibility of a munafacture being able to 'lock-out' a camera that has been sold & paid for either.


Stephen

 

[Peter Majtan]

So, the SD card really doesnt matter - but the key file on it does. It would be specific to that camera (or a set of cameras), and to that password generated key used. Just having a SD card with a key would not activate a camera not owned by you.

That's the general idea - which is why I've said that if You loose the RED-Key, You can just go buy any SD card and generate new key from Your laptop.

In addition, you would need internet access to start the thing, and then just keep a copy of the key file in a safe place on your computer. (You would have a computer on your 'round the world doc!)

That is if You make the key-generating SW web-based. This will not fly with end-user as many times You are on a location far away from internet. The SW needs to be locally on Your laptop, but it is useless when steeled - because You will need the personal data and correct password to generate the new key...

Now, heres why this whole idea wont work: Theres a significant amount of work and testing to be done to make it work. The key-generating website would need a lot of work to ensure that it correctly matches up owners with cameras. In addition, there have been a lot of sold cameras, so the keys would need to be made so after an owner sells a camera the keys are no longer valid.

There is no need for any of this if You make the SW local, not web-based. Since the key is generated by the end user locally - when you sell your camera, you just disable it in the menu and the new owner can generate his own new key as and when he pleases...

This doesnt even count on the programming that would need to be done in camera to brick itself after a certain timeperiod, and the software would need to be fool-proof from the start, no beta software for this idea. Even though it is in Red's interest to make us happy, theres a significant amount of time and labor needed to make this happen. Its not really in Reds best interest to make this happen.

Actually that programming is not that difficult - You just abandon the boot sequence and hang it on the warning (see the diagram). What will be difficult is the programming for the SW to generate the key and for the camera to recognize it. Difficult, but doable and very much in the interest of RED and the owners...

Really, the only way to find the cameras that are stolen now is via traditional means or by tracking the R3D files with camera IDs via something that is connected to the net (i.e. software on a editing computer)

And we have proposed this as well (just read the whole thread)...

Peter

 

[Peter Majtan]

Hi,

So if a camera gets stolen, all the footage previousely shot with that camera becomes useless. I am not sure I like the possibility of a munafacture being able to 'lock-out' a camera that has been sold & paid for either.


Stephen

Good point Stephen. The SW could be just made to "phone home" to RED and the owner only if the footage date is AFTER the camera was stolen. So when including the stolen RED ONE numbers in the SW (or an online database to be checked periodically by the SW), they would need to include the date when it was stolen as well. This will not affect the previous footage...

Peter

 

[Peter Majtan]

Peter, nice concept. I like parts of it a lot. But have to admit some things I don't like. I think the concept of X number of boot-ups is a bad one. This is something that can be entirely unpredictable, especially in rental situations.

I don't like it either, I would much prefer time/date scenario. But in the current RED ONE's this is rather easy to circumvent. If You disable it in the menu, then it can't be adjusted for time-zone travel with the crew, etc... Given the situation I think that the # of boots is the safest way for now.

Another alternative would be simple that the camera will not start without the RED-Key (once activated), period. No number of boots, no time/date limit. You will need to keep the RED-Key separated from the camera after the shoot. But this will not prevent the "rental" theft, as You would need to rent it out with the camera. This will only prevent "normal" theft...

 

[Peter Majtan]

No, I would not like this system.
There is always a chans that the system breaks and totally hangs during a job.
In this case you have just INCREASED the risk of failiure. If the cam get stolen, this system will NOT magically get you a new cam an continue shooting.

Then, if You are that paranoid - just make the larger deposit for the system not to be activated. No offense...

Peter

 

[Peter Majtan]

Well, in this case I`m totally in! Let`s just hope someone doesnt come up with a red keygen. But then again, people who steal would need to have some of our personal information.

Exactly - that is the "key" to success. Without the personal info and password the SW is useless... Even if the thieves are clever enough to reverse engineer the way the key is generated - it will be pointless as they would be unable to generate the exact key required to unlock the camera. This is the weakness of SW keys generated by the SW manufacturers based on the ethernet ID, etc...

Peter