"RED is Dead baby... RED is DEAD" or Chronicle of immature technology

[Cüneyt Kaya]

nexto cf readers are so cheap...you could triple back up the footy...
and a used macbookpro + a graid is just a small amount of money in comparison to the stress you hav now.

 

[laguun]

True Even With Films And Hd On Tapes There Is No 100% Guarantee That The Info You Film Is Ok, But We Have Very Little Problems With This Because Most, Like 99.99% Of The Materials Are Fine And Useable.

Its beyond me how someone blames a tool for his lack of qualification.

Would you send a *completly* uneducated assistant into the film lab to develop your negative, someone who never worked with film?

Would you have someone pull the distribution copies from your negative who doesnt understand the *basic* principles of film processing?

In this production, *basic* procedures which are *necessary* for *any* professional digital production have not been followed.

The result demonstrates why these basic procedures, in place since decades in any industery using hard disc exchange, have to be respected. By banks, hospitals, insurances, plane manufacturers, the military and *filmproduction* is no exception.

Backup. Thats a actual *advantage* of digital production, not possible on mechanical film cameras. But it has to been done. Thats a part of the work we do.

No Producer Will Risk It.

Nonsense.
Hundreds of producers, do invest $$$.$$$-$$.$$$.$$$ in red productions - sucessfully. Mistakes as in this case, which clearly exposes misplanned production standards and/or underqualified labour are not common in our industry. Because such mistakes, no matter if film, harddisc or tape are expensive.

Operator, procedure and human error have nothing to do with the tools.
In this case its a clear case of wildly dangerous working principles, it seems furthermore untested.

I Am Sure There Are Ways To Overcome All This But I Don't Think Red Is Confronting Them, What Kind Of A Solution Is "... Send The Drive To Red..."???!!!???
Are You Joking Me?

No.
Mistake 1:
Working with digital harddisc media without backup (applies to all digital media).
Solution:
Swap drives, even better c/f.
Time cost <10 seconds on c/f.
Dit copies.
"Problem" solved.

Mistake 2:
Doing so for hours worth of footage.
Solution:
a) Have negative insurance. Cost 3-4%.
or
b) learn basic procedures, do not repeat own mistakes.

 

[gbalaji]

Mistake is yours

Mistake is yours

I shot (DP) an Inidie Feature Film, here in the film-peripheria a.k.a Israel.
Being The first production to ever use this VooDoo camera here in Israel.
All Went relatively well, as long as we were shooting inside a studio. this took place during February.

.......
i dont care what "build" it was.

I dont eat half baked cakes.
I dont want to use immature, not QAed, unrealiable technology, claiming to be a camera for cinema.

for me RED is DEAD, baby. RED is DEAD.

you guys neglected, by design, the most important aspect of a film camera: a relaiable workhorse that doesnt get in your way.

Addie Reiss, Cinematographer

Sorry for the sorrow. You may be a big cameraman, but you need to follow the disciplines when you are working with digital systems.

You never quoted in your post about the DIT and Backup drives. You were misguided and not prepared yourself to shoot on RED. You will face this kind of disasters with digital technologies and you need to prepare yourself for the worst condition and complaining is not going to help you in your future projects.

Post about the backup recovery if you find time and interest.

 

[Chris Gearhart]

This thread should become a sticky, and required reading for every DIT. lol

It's also hilariously fun!

I am very sorry, however, that the footage was lost. An expensive lesson, but I'm never happy when someone has to learn it. And I am not immune to cutting a corner here and there and getting burned (did that three days ago--drove 1.3 miles without my seat belt on thinking no accident (or police) could get me, statistically. At least it was only a police officer).

Again, sorry, man.

 

[D Namir]

Why don't you simply accept the elementary fact that a computer can lose data and if you do not care about that because of a very ignorant and uncultured approach then you are just fu...ed? This is the simplest ad most elementar basics of information technology and has nothing to do with "immaturity of a product". In other words, if you would have taken your laptop and dropped it into a lake and then wondered that your data is lost, then you would have used the same level of "smartness" like your DP who didn't care about a back-up of the RED data.

Sorry but this isn't the same if you think it is the same I would rather shoot with a camera that is more trouble free. What advantage do I gat from this camera on film while film has history of shooting scenes with hundreds of extras and delivering results, why should a producer risks such expensive scenes?

 

[Andrae Palmer]

Sorry but this isn't the same if you think it is the same I would rather shoot with a camera that is more trouble free. What advantage do I gat from this camera on film while film has history of shooting scenes with hundreds of extras and delivering results, why should a producer risks such expensive scenes?

An entire crew of incompetent individuals not acknowledging that it was their mistake. Thank God that RED made it available for people like me to shoot 4K. Notice how the original poster started by stating how big the shoot was.. so many people involved, cranes, etc. All of that with no one understanding the basic operation of the camera.... completely unprofessional.

 

[D Namir]

You are all right guys, there are ways to make sure everything is OK, back up data, check and double check, but why to go through all that when you have a film cameras that proved for tens of years that they deliver the images without so many problems.
i understand the unnecessary need of the human being to swap and change technology but at least lets make in a way so we don't have so many troubles, so we can come to a producer and tell him look we have a new tool it deliver a good image, though different from film, and it doesn't loose data.

 

[Jason Ing]

Sorry but this isn't the same if you think it is the same I would rather shoot with a camera that is more trouble free. What advantage do I gat from this camera on film while film has history of shooting scenes with hundreds of extras and delivering results, why should a producer risks such expensive scenes?

Tell me what film can actually give you added insurance you do have it "in the can" when, IF you know what you're doing, you can BACKUP several copies of your footage in minutes after shooting it?

 

[laguun]

Sorry but this isn't the same if you think it is the same I would rather shoot with a camera that is more trouble free.

Film negative can be as troubling as digital can be. The difference is: With digital one can control, check and backup immediatly, which is impossible with mechanical cameras and chemical negative. Film can be damaged pre-production (assistand has negative stored to hot etc), while shooting (mechanical damage or streaks when rotary/shutter misaligned etc), and after shooting (as recently demonstrated when several -shooting DAYS- the A-budget Valkyrie, starring Tom cruises, where completly destroyed at arri) and none can control this at once.

What advantage do I gat from this camera on film while film has history of shooting scenes with hundreds of extras and delivering results, why should a producer risks such expensive scenes?

- because he gets better resolution
- because its cheaper
- because he can *control* if the shot is perfect (film cant do that) immediatly
- because he can perfectly backup his footage (which he cant do on film)
- because he can at once, on the set, add the 1000s of extras digitally and have the VFX dept check that everything is working as intended and planned (which he cant do on film)
- and many more reasons.

 

[laguun]

You are all right guys, there are ways to make sure everything is OK, back up data, check and double check, but why to go through all that when you have a film cameras that proved for tens of years that they deliver the images without so many problems.

i have lost *many* reels of films, at the best labs, with the best cameras, all operated perfectly top-film gear with skilled people.

Teared negative on a mercedes spot, a friendly production several days shooting due to a camera defect, lost TC on a gone-crazy telecine... no human error,just usual film-problems. Ah and yes, the classic "DONT OPEN THE CA..... AAAAAAAH! ... n." happend also to me once.

film is neither error-prone, bullet-proof or protected against operator mistake.
same with digital.

 

[Robert Frank]

What advantage do I gat from this camera on film while film has history of shooting scenes with hundreds of extras and delivering results, why should a producer risks such expensive scenes?

I say, respectfully, that if you have trouble with a data-centric workflow then you may want to stick with film.

In my opinion, from a pure workflow POV, data-centric movie production is the winner.

 

[D Namir]

An entire crew of incompetent individuals not acknowledging that it was their mistake. Thank God that RED made it available for people like me to shoot 4K. Notice how the original poster started by stating how big the shoot was.. so many people involved, cranes, etc. All of that with no one understanding the basic operation of the camera.... completely unprofessional.

I am not going to say anything about the crew and the specific Red camera they were using.
But as far as your production I see you are using Panasonic HVX200, I am sure everything was fine with it, have you shot with the Red? will you be saying the same things if you would loose a shooting day because of the camera and a camera that is still in the process of being build, and that is my main problem.
Red is not ready yet, it could be a great camera in 6 months, in 1 year I don't exactly when but it could also be a total failure because of the way it was brought to life, too soon from search and development, too soon from testing, and it is being shaved on our chicks.

 

[D Namir]

I say, respectfully, that if you have trouble with a data-centric workflow then you may want to stick with film.

In my opinion, from a pure workflow POV, data-centric movie production is the winner.

gain I am not arguing about data and progress, I only say it is too soon and if Red is not going to do it right Arriflex "will pass them on the curve"

 

[laguun]

gain I am not arguing about data and progress, I only say it is too soon and if Red is not going to do it right Arriflex "will pass them on the curve"

red sells more 35mm cameras than arri. Much more.

Even if one combines all arri cameras sales together, mechanical 16, 35, 65 and digital, red sells *much* more than arri.

 

[Jason Ing]

I'm curious, do you ever make duplicates of your original business documents before you mail them?

 

[laguun]

Red is not ready yet, it could be a great camera in 6 months, in 1 year I don't exactly when but it could also be a total failure because of the way it was brought to life, too soon from search and development, too soon from testing, and it is being shaved on our chicks.

Nonsense.

The first released movie using red (jumper) went directly to #1 in the box office. Doug Liman, the director (mr. & mrs smith, bourne identity...) commented: There was always an Aaton on my set. Now there is always a red.

Already with the prototypes $$.$$$.$$$ budgets have been shot - as Che, running in cannes right now.

We are producing on two sets with red as i write this.

There are still issues in the camera and the postproduction workflow, but none which would stop pros.

 

[Jason Ing]

Guys, You Don't Read Between The Lines And The Lines.
What Adi Is Saying, And I Have Met Adi During His Shot In The Studio, And I Keep Saying It And This Is One F My Problems With Red:
Why Did You Get Out An Immature Camera.
When A Producer, A Dp And Even The Camera Assistant Go Out For A Shoot They Want To Have A Tool That Work, Not Maybe Work, Not Vanishing Data, But Knowing It Works.
True Even With Films And Hd On Tapes There Is No 100% Guarantee That The Info You Film Is Ok, But We Have Very Little Problems With This Because Most, Like 99.99% Of The Materials Are Fine And Useable.
No Producer Will Risk It.
I Am Sure There Are Ways To Overcome All This But I Don't Think Red Is Confronting Them, What Kind Of A Solution Is "... Send The Drive To Red..."???!!!???
Are You Joking Me?

The solution is:

When A Producer, A Dp And Even The Camera Assistant Go Out For A Shoot...

...They should be professionals and educate themselves on the tools they use to shoot with. They will "overcome" the "risks" by knowing the simple, easy "solution" of...

... verify it. copy it.

 

[Jason Ing]

By the way, I work in an Information Systems and Technology department where we are responsible for data that is worth hundreds of millions of dollars. Every single drive has a mirror, a real time hard-drive back up, an off-site tape copy, etc. etc. It's called common sense. It's also called disaster recovery. And we don't own any Reds. It has nothing to do with a camera. It's technology. And it's not new, "immature", "beta" technology either. We use the old, reliable, tried and true, good, extremely expensive stuff. And guess what happens? Yup. In every single IT department in the world... something goes wrong. The best professionals prepare for it. They don't ask, "if", they ask, "when".

And this is nothing new... you own a computer. If it crashes and you lose the data on the hard drive and you don't have a copy of it... whose fault is it really?

You want 100% guaranteed, perfect technology? It doesn't exist. And won't. Old, film technology that's been around and proven for years still loses "data" in it's workflow process.

If you have important "data", it's your responsibility to take the safeguards to prevent it being lost. Copy it.

 

[Robert Frank]

gain I am not arguing about data and progress, I only say it is too soon and if Red is not going to do it right Arriflex "will pass them on the curve"

I agree that there may be a problem here or there, but they are the exception and not the norm. CODEC ERROR is not a good thing to see.

BUT from what I see, RED *is* doing things right.

Where RED has the advantage is being able to *verify* that all is well or not while shooting.

Imagine if someone (referring to the OP's problem) backed up on set frequently and were able to point out a problem right then and there.

Just being able to shoot the scene over is time/money/stress saver. Being able to quickly review footage for exposure, composition, background, actor's performance, etc, is a potential movie saver especially for a low budget production.

 

[Denis Buhot]

gain I am not arguing about data and progress, I only say it is too soon and if Red is not going to do it right Arriflex "will pass them on the curve"

The whole story looks like somebody rushing into people with anger (say, back in 1900's), just because he didn't know reels had to be loaded in a dustless environment), complaining he had a nice sharp scratch throughout his footage and blaming the new technology for that limitation... Because computer procedures are relatively "new", some might tend to forget how tedious good' ol' film routine was to ensure proper results.