Red for Documentary

[Sean Fine]

Red for Documentary
I am starting production on a new doc slated for theatrical release. My last doc was shot with the Varicam and turned out greta. People at Sundance were asking if it was shot in 35mm. I am thinking of using a red for this next one and wanted to know if anyone has used the red for high end theatrical docs. i am concerned about:
1) ease of use
2) small crew with the red
3) camera weight
4) how well the camera holds up in the field

Wpould love soem input and possibly any links ro doc trailers shot with red.

Thanks so much,

Sean

 

[ReddyForScarlet]

Sean,

I thought so too when I saw it. Overall I was blown away by WD, and for all aspects of the film. As far as crew and ease of use goes, I'd assume your Varicam crew would be smaller than an equally functioning RED crew. But god knows what you'd create with a 35mm equivalent sensor...

Cool to have you on the boards. Good luck with the project!

-Ian

EDIT: Showing any work at Sundance this year?

 

[Scott Mason]

Sean-

We use the RED for run and gun all the time. If you use it for a few days before you start your production you will know what you need and don't and the camera can be made lighter if you can live without some accessories. A great tool to help keep the load off your back is an easy rig, but element technica's shoulder mount solution is perfect since it goes from hand held to studio very quickly.

I have shot with the varicam, cinealta, and film and all of them can be cumbersome or light depending on what you can live with or without.

There is a great video of a talented D.P. (can't think of his name) traveling the world with his RED in a backpack and he sets it up rather quickly.

To me there can be some challenges with the red in these situations, but the trade off is 100 fold. You basically get a film camera with the ease of use of a video camera (relatively .

Just to put it in perspective, we shoot the red consistantly and put it on the news that night so it can be done well if you just plan correctly. Using a zoom helps, avoiding the matte box can speed things up (we don't since I like the shallow depth of field so we change filters rather quickly, or live with it using the battery on a belt, cf cards instead of the drive and the evf instead of the lcd really helps. The evf although heavier allows for more stability in handheld and gives you easy access to menus so the trade off in weight is worth it. Not to mention shooting outdoors

Anyway it's an erector set so you can make it really small if you like, or larger than life if you so chose

good luck
scott

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

Hi Sean,

if you are used to shoot with S16 cameras on documentaries you'll be fine with the red. The camera is bulky and heavy - it takes some time and testing to make it working for documentaries. First of all, you need a Elementtechnicha EVF mount plus the EFV. That will give you a solid and conviently adjustable EVF mount. As Scott pointed out very well you need the EVF to stabelise the camera on your shoulder. In order to have a well balanced package the camera needs a battery at the back for counter-balance and the EVF pushed to the front.
I don't like those handheld riggs for documentary work simply for the reason that it takes a while to set it up (you want the cam ready to shoot in your car) and changing for a quick tripod shot is rather unconvenient and time consuming. Beeing ready to shoot in a second is vital, IMO.

Here we come to more downsides:

The booting time is rather long. 90 sec. can be a dealbreaker.

The red is 250-320 ASA. A Sony F900R is at least 640 ASA.

Shooting 4K delivers prestine pictures with a 35mm-like shallow DOF. Can be difficult for docs. In the end you might end up with a lot of beautiful but soft pictures.

For 4K there is now lens available that has the ease of use and range of 2/3 HD-glas (rocker-zooms, etc...).

What I do:

I use my Red for commercials and also for docs which I previously shot on the F900R. I make a compromise by shootig 3K. That has some advantages. First of all it gives the ability to use S16 zooms like the formidable Canon 8-64.
This lens performes in the range of 8-30mm better than all HD-ENG zooms I know and at least on par with canon Cinestyle zooms. From 30mm onwards the lens becomes soft, at least when shot wide open. S16 zooms don't cover 3K fully but when cropped in post you are able to debayer at roughly 2.5K to a full resolution 1080p picture. Since many S16 lense cover a bit more than the standart S16 gate you will gain a bit more shallow DOF and of course FOF. 3K also delivers 45fps on CF cards which might be handy some time.

Why not 2K? 2K RAW debayerd will deliver not full resolution 1080p. The debayer factor of roughly 0.75 - 0.80 will prevent this. Also 2K has a smaller sensor crop than the S16 gate, meaning you will lose considerably FOV on a given S16 lens. IMO a 2K red picture is inferior to that what a Sony F900R is able deliver.

I use only CF cards for docs. The drives are to weak for such work plus saving weight is the game here. Someone on the board is building a lightweight 15mm rod adaptor. That will improve a documentary setup vastly. I'll will get one for myself.

There a many who find the downsides of the Redone concerning ergonomics, handling and light sensitivity a dealbreaker. I find the ability to grade off the raw, the nicer DOF, the varaible frame rates (you have that with the Varicam aswell) more important -despite the complicated workflow.

Hans

 

[Andrew Young]

I make a compromise by shootig 3K. That has some advantages. First of all it gives the ability to use S16 zooms like the formidable Canon 8-64.

Hi Hans,

Thanks for that informative post. I have a Canon 7-63 (the update to the 8-64) for my Aaton. It's a great lens - my staple for doc shooting. However, I have not bothered to convert the lens to PL for use on my Red because my 2K results have been disappointing for the reasons you mentioned - noisy and a step down from 1080p. I've wondered about the cropped 3K route because the results are so much nicer, but I worry about a post production nightmare with all that cropping. How do you deal with it? Is Red Cine a must. What do you do for in camera framing guides? Thanks for any thoughts you can share.

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

Hi Andy,

first of all I must say you have a very inspiring reel reel. Much work and effort went into it - impressive.

Docs with the red. Not neccessarily a nightmare - not even on the post side.

1. Strip down the camera as possible (who am I talking to).

2. You want it balanced (saw your Aaton) on your shoulder. For that you need the battery on the back and the EVF cokebottle pushed right to the front, almost touching the mattebox.

3. You want the Red realiable AND light - use CF, get those new 16GBs. I've got plenty of 8GBs - no budget for the 16GB at the moment. With a runtime of approx. 6 Minutes at 3K they work for me. For helicopter I use the raid, be sure to have it shock protected mounted (pocket is a good place). I got tons of drops-outs with that device.

4. You need a lightweight mattebox that covers the HIGHER FOV when using 3K RAW scaled down to 2.5 RAW. My 2 stage Canon clip-on mattebox does vignette with its 4x4 filter-holder. For that reason I use a MB19. For the purist to much bells and whistles, though - but it is 4x5.

5. I like rods to hold the cam. Handles are looking fancy but are of no great help IMO - you cannot put down the camera on the floor, for instance. And, Red's handles cannot be fastened enough for the torque you put on them when shooting.

6. Douglas Underdahl - if I recall correctly - is the man who builds the lightweight rod adaptor. I think it's about 500k. Does make a lot of sens.

7. In the moment I use a FF4 followfocus. When I get the adaptor I will utilise my lightweight Chrosziel follow focus for this kind of work. It works like a handle and you can pull nicely the focus.

8. I don't want to be tethered. For that reason the RedOne accepts TC-In of a soundrecording device. Please bare in mind that after every rebooting sound must be synced again. Maybe that is fixed in Build 17?...

9. Switch off in the menue all the assignable buttons, especially those on the EVF. Hitting them by incident happens all the time an can be a showstopper. The only one I leave on is the manifying function. I put it there where normaly the useless WB is (do you have a WB on a filmcamera?) Red is not WYSIWYG. On docs you don't have a videovillage, hence you don't need to make the picture look "right" and keeping the 5000K in Metadata is vital for post, IMO.

10. Use 3K 2:1 for S16 16:9 doc work. The height of this format does cover nearly the lens. You don't want to record unnecessary black. By cropping the sides from 2:1 to 16:9 you are almost done - at least with the longer focal lengths. Here, ever lens is different. I'm not sure how your Canoan 7-63 will behave in this regard. Perhaps you will lose the first two mm but remember that you will gain FOV anyway.

10. Dial in 250 ASA. This way you don't have to recheck highlights later for the debayering when using Red's apps. IMO 250 ASA represents the sensor best. Chganging ASA does only affect metadata. If you underexpose, you underexpose. Recovering this can be done later better.

That's about it concerning the camera.

Post.

1. I use Cinform, on the MAC aswell as on Windows. You don't have to, but in my enviroment it does make a lot of sense.

2. I don't use RedCine. I find it not primetime ready. If you want to use Red's apps. you can use RedRushes very well for cropped 3K rushes. There are very useful menues that help to set up a correct crop. For offline rushes RedSpace is the way to go. Please bare in mind that the cropping counts in the debayer-factor. Meaning, if you do a half debayer off a 3KRAW for offline rushes for render-speed reason you have to crop off a 1.5 K source...

3. For online rushes a full debayer is needed, otherwise you don't get the full 1080p resolution. RedLog is here the best setting. It does look not as "vibrant" as RedSpace but gives a good foundation for grading and VFX work.

4. RedRushes does support AVID. You are not tied to FCP.

5. Any major garding system will swallow DPX, some do also QT. With FCP ProRes is convenient and for all those things which don't require VFX work or generation-stability fine enough.

I've got an Arri SR S16 which has been my camera for many jobs. Unfortunately S16 does not hold up when it comes to 1080p. Some time I will reactivate it for retro shots. Somewhat a pitty.

I guess that the second generatin of Red's cameras will solve many of RedOne's ergonomics issues. If you have any ideas about a great doc setup, please let me know!

Kind Regards,

Hans

 

[Rob Castiglione]

Hans,

Thanks for your very generous and helpful post which I read with great interest.

Rob

 

[Andrew Young]

Hi Hans,

Thanks for the comments on the reel. Anxious to add to it with my Red...

My doc setup sounds a lot like yours. I just got Doug's LW rod set-up and I use them w/ my Aaton handgrip. Best addition so far to my Red. Most handle/shoulder pad solutions don't work for me, as I sometimes need to be able to put the camera on a flat surface during verite shooting and there is never time to reconfigure. Battery on back is a must to counter balance front heaviness.

10. Use 3K 2:1 for S16 16:9 doc work. The height of this format does cover nearly the lens. You don't want to record unnecessary black. By cropping the sides from 2:1 to 16:9 you are almost done - at least with the longer focal lengths. Here, ever lens is different. I'm not sure how your Canoan 7-63 will behave in this regard. Perhaps you will lose the first two mm but remember that you will gain FOV anyway.

Thanks for this info - exactly what I wanted to know. Sounds like I can shoot 3K 2:1 cropped to 16:9 for dailies (and also mark this in my viewfinder) and that will get me cose, but that some shots will still need to be custom cropped further for online. Fine for my own productions, but not acceptable for doc shooting jobs, I'm afraid. For those, I don't know, maybe 4KHD mode with 35mm glass. 35mm lens choices are not as good for doc, however.

As soon a my camera comes back from Red upgrade I'll experiment with this. Maybe my S16 glass will get some use after all. Time to mess with the cropping features in RedRushes and Clipfinder.

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

My doc setup sounds a lot like yours. I just got Doug's LW rod set-up and I use them w/ my Aaton handgrip. Best addition so far to my Red. Most handle/shoulder pad solutions don't work for me, as I sometimes need to be able to put the camera on a flat surface during verite shooting and there is never time to reconfigure. Battery on back is a must to counter balance front heaviness.

Yes, pads don't work for me either. Great that you can use the nice wooden Aaton handgrip with such a set up - envy! Good to know that you find Dough Underdahls adaptor is a good investment - I'll send him a mail now.

Sounds like I can shoot 3K 2:1 cropped to 16:9 for dailies (and also mark this in my viewfinder) and that will get me cose, but that some shots will still need to be custom cropped further for online. Fine for my own productions, but not acceptable for doc shooting jobs, I'm afraid.

I'm not sure how your clients manage their R3D data mess. I personally create off ALL shots half/quarter debayered offline rushes - in my case CineForm. That allows me to evaluate the footage and offline edit the project. There are currently new RAW workflows available which either need FCP or PremierPro. FCP is 4K/2K only, don't know about PremierPro. But I do know that RT deabyering costs a lot of computing power. I want editing fast and snappy and with as less rendering involved as possible, so no RAW enditing for me.

I guess that most clients use RedRushes or Clipfinder or something similar as well, I don't think that this is neccessarily an obstacle for shooting S16 3K 2:1 cropped. You will find a huge difference between 2K and 3K 2:1 fully debayered and cropped to 1080p.

For those, I don't know, maybe 4KHD mode with 35mm glass. 35mm lens choices are not as good for doc, however.

I've shot doc-style stuff with my SuperSpeeds on 4K Raw. It does work for a certain style of film. Many shots have a drifting focus (cannot describe it better - here in Germany we say the focus swims). Things become soft, stylish, rough, can be very sexy. But if straight story-telling is the aim all that "cool" focus pulling/finding gets in the way.

The only zoom lens that I find useful in this regard is the Optimo 14-40. It's almots as fast as our Canon zooms and has a very useful zoom range.

Hans

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

Hans,

Thanks for your very generous and helpful post which I read with great interest.

Rob

Thanks for the kind words. You are welcome.

Hans

 

[Sean Fine]

Reply to Hans

Reply to Hans

Hi Hans,
Thank you for the advice. I just tried the red out in 4k mode and loved the image quality. My concern is that I will be using my 2/3 lenses for the camera. Meaning I have to shoot in 2k mode. I am not a huge fan of the look of the F900. I prefer the Varicam despite being 720p. My last film looked great on the big screen with the Varicam. Do you think the Red will be an improvement in image quality? I shoot very light and have my Varicam as stripped down as possible. I usually do not even use matt boxes. My only gripe about the Varicam is the image tends to fall apart in low light light. DO you think the Red looks better in low light. It seemed like I could pull a lot of detail out with Red software even at ASA 1600. I appreciate any advice. Thanks,
Sean
www.fine-films.com

 

[Sean Fine]

Hi Hans,
Thank you for the advice. I just tried the red out in 4k mode and loved the image quality. My concern is that I will be using my 2/3 lenses for the camera. Meaning I have to shoot in 2k mode. I am not a huge fan of the look of the F900. I prefer the Varicam despite being 720p. My last film looked great on the big screen with the Varicam. Do you think the Red will be an improvement in image quality? I shoot very light and have my Varicam as stripped down as possible. I usually do not even use matt boxes. My only gripe about the Varicam is the image tends to fall apart in low light light. DO you think the Red looks better in low light. It seemed like I could pull a lot of detail out with Red software even at ASA 1600. I appreciate any advice. Thanks,
Sean
www.fine-films.com

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

Hi Hans,
Thank you for the advice. I just tried the red out in 4k mode and loved the image quality. My concern is that I will be using my 2/3 lenses for the camera. Meaning I have to shoot in 2k mode. I am not a huge fan of the look of the F900. I prefer the Varicam despite being 720p. My last film looked great on the big screen with the Varicam. Do you think the Red will be an improvement in image quality? I shoot very light and have my Varicam as stripped down as possible. I usually do not even use matt boxes. My only gripe about the Varicam is the image tends to fall apart in low light light. DO you think the Red looks better in low light. It seemed like I could pull a lot of detail out with Red software even at ASA 1600. I appreciate any advice. Thanks,
Sean
www.fine-films.com

Hi Sean,

Have you tested a 2/3 adaptor on the Red? It eats some mm DOF and cost some light - quarter to half a stop or so. Basically, your wideangel HD-ENG zoom becomes are boring standard lens. And the adaptor does not make the picture better, on the contrary. You are much better off with S16 glas.

The Red is 250 ASA. Your Varicam approximately is 1 1/2 stops faster. You can push the footage considerably when you have tons of flesh for oversampling. You do have that to some extend with 4KRAW. You don't have that with 2K RAW. 2K RAW gets badly noisy when underexposed. Test it.

Why do you want to change a winning horse?

I wouldn't.

Hans

 

[Nick Gardner]

Yo Hans,

I have to disagree with you on a few points.

First of all the Red is not 250 asa. Secondly, as someone who owns both a red and a Varicam, I think that the noise level on the red is about the same at asa 800 as the Varicam at 0DB. The reolustion of 2k is considerably better than 7to1 compressed 720.

Also, the red chip size is closer to 16mm film than super 16mm. The b4-PL adapter is basically the abikus adapter that many of us used in 16mm film, it worked great, the fov cropping is no where near what you imply.

I have done side by side comparisons on a 17" HD monitor a/bing the two cameras. The Red destroyed the varicam, even with the 720p preview feed.

I would call on Leo Techelli to back me up here since he used to shoot a ton of Varicam.

In the interest of full disclosure, Sean is a good friend, and it was my Red he checked out.

Cheers,

Nick

 

[Andrew Young]

My concern is that I will be using my 2/3 lenses for the camera. Meaning I have to shoot in 2k mode.
www.fine-films.com

If you've already got the lenses you want to use and they are 2/3" I would venture to say that you are better off with the Varicam for a doc project. Especially if the financials are workable. Last summer I shot Red 2K and an HDX900 (in 720p mode) side by side on a shoot and the 2K paled in comparison. 4K is a different matter all together, but at 2K I would go with the Panny.

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

Yo Hans,

I have to disagree with you on a few points.

First of all the Red is not 250 asa. Secondly, as someone who owns both a red and a Varicam, I think that the noise level on the red is about the same at asa 800 as the Varicam at 0DB. The reolustion of 2k is considerably better than 7to1 compressed 720.

Also, the red chip size is closer to 16mm film than super 16mm. The b4-PL adapter is basically the abikus adapter that many of us used in 16mm film, it worked great, the fov cropping is no where near what you imply.

I have done side by side comparisons on a 17" HD monitor a/bing the two cameras. The Red destroyed the varicam, even with the 720p preview feed.

I would call on Leo Techelli to back me up here since he used to shoot a ton of Varicam.

In the interest of full disclosure, Sean is a good friend, and it was my Red he checked out.

Cheers,

Nick

Hi Nick,

We have been talking about the 250 ASA setting in the camera's metadata. If you dial in 320 ASA you will have to bring back exposure in many shots down to 250 ASA in order to keep higlight in the Red apps. In this regard the RedOne is 250 ASA and not 320 ASA as Red advertises.

Apart from that I do agree with you that you can underexpose the red down to what ever you want. It does only depend how much noise you want to bare. As mentioned above, 4K gives much, much more room than 2K does.
3 weeks ago I shot a commercial for the big screen and rated the Redone 500 ASA at 4K and it turned out well regarding noise. But I have a very different experience with 2K though. IMO, for competitive 2K RAW footage the camera needs a much more accurate, more right (histogram wise) exposure, meaning measured 250-320 ASA.

I never shot with the Varicam and never commented on this camera but used the F900R on many doc projects and asure you that with the right lenses (digiprimes, cinestyle Canon zooms) this camera outperforms the RedOne in 2K - at least if things like light sensitivity and ergonomics counts in.

And if you say that the RedOne destroys the Varicam also in 2K mode I'm fine and glad that I never used this camera.

I think we are both happy to say that the Red's sweet spot is 4K RAW and S35mm lenses. Adopting the Red for doc, and that is what this thread is about, is all about saving as much of the RedOnes's potential quality into a viable setup for documentary work. Otherwise it's better to use a high-end HD camera.

Hans

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

Hi Hans,
Thank you for the advice. I just tried the red out in 4k mode and loved the image quality. My concern is that I will be using my 2/3 lenses for the camera. Meaning I have to shoot in 2k mode. I am not a huge fan of the look of the F900. I prefer the Varicam despite being 720p. My last film looked great on the big screen with the Varicam. Do you think the Red will be an improvement in image quality? I shoot very light and have my Varicam as stripped down as possible. I usually do not even use matt boxes. My only gripe about the Varicam is the image tends to fall apart in low light light. DO you think the Red looks better in low light. It seemed like I could pull a lot of detail out with Red software even at ASA 1600. I appreciate any advice. Thanks,
Sean
www.fine-films.com

Sean,

checked your website. You really know how to shoot. Perhaps try something new? Try S16 lenses, or perhaps you are much better than I am with focus pulling by sight and you could manage a 4K setup with am Angenieux Optimo 14-40? And BTW, the F900R is very different to the older F900s. The camera is much lighter and shorter plus much less noisy with a nice roll-off in the whites. Almost bought one.

Just thinking loudly, don't want to patronise anyone.

Hans (who has a lot of respect for sucessfull documentarians)

 

[Steve Sherrick]

Sean,

Wow, blown away by that trailer. I need to see that film. Looks great.

Everyone has offered some great advice so not much more for me to add other than - the best test is the one you run yourself. I say shoot for a day under tough conditions with the Red, configure it in a way that would be "right" for your way of shooting and then see what results you get from it. I am a big fan of 4K. It's clean, it's got the 35mm depth of field qualities, and it's great for theatrical prints. But there are other modes on the camera that have their own value. 4K HD mode for instance. A perfect mode for downsampling to 1080P. But post workflow dictates whether it is viable. 3K is great too, especially for doc. 2K is great for highspeed and in some doc circumstances. When well lit, good exposure it holds up pretty well.

At the end of the day if Red doesn't allow you to tell your story the way you want to, it's the wrong choice. I've seen documentary filmmakers choose HDV cameras over professional cameras like F900 and Varicam, not because of budget, but because they were able to shoot fast to capture moments that might pass them by with a larger rig, and in some cases get them arrested or harassed. From viewing the trailer of your film, it seems to me that you could make a good film with just about any camera you are given, so I'd watch your next film whether it was shot Varicam or Red.

 

[Michael Brennan]

I agree that you lose a useful zoom range with 35mm lenses. Given that say 50mm is about as long as you'de want to use hand held on the big screen a wide TV zoom is a powerful tool for docs.

Consider shooting 4k for wide establishers and 2/3k for the rest.


Also, varicam has some useful features but in 2009 the highest quality one piece HD camcorder is the Panasonic AJ HPX 3000. It records 10 bits 1920x1080 4:2:2 at 100Mbs. 14bit AD.

If you are consistent then mixing formats/cameras can easily be disguised in the grade.
Overall I'd say it largely depends on the locations and the subject matter.
Im shooting a doc at the moment and will use RED for setups, pretty pics and slomo and XDCAMHD 50mbs for available light actuality.

Mike Brennan

 

[Damien Molineaux]

Hi,

I'm considering shooting a doc. in Red. I agree 2k is not quite up to par in my opinion. I plan on shooting mostly 3k. I started a thread in the Accessories section to show my light weight setup for shoulder shooting : http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=24895

Cheers,
Damien