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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

RED Fanboyism vs. RED FUD.

ibloom said:
Last I heard REDCODE, the wavelet compression, decompresses to 10-bit only. Straight raw is 12.
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You heard wrong :) We wavelet compress in 12-bits.

ibloom said:
I think process matters. I think the history of operating systems and software developement prooves that. I don't know of any camera's that do this. I know that third party code certification is an entire field, though it generally doesn't happen to consumer appliances. In any case. You are right, if the camera works, then you are good. The only purpose of talking about your process is to alay FUD. How something was made is often a selling point. It's rare to hear someone trying to sell something high quality and saying, who cares how we did it.
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I hope RED has proven by now that we are about quality. We've been very open about the (development) process in general. Everyone who's seen the camera's can attest they are solid build.

Obviously we are approaching the software the same way. The software (nor hardware) never failed while shooting Crossing the Line. Of course there were bugs, which we are fixing. It's extremely difficult to have no (obscure) bugs.

Jim has pledged that we will update firmware and software to fix things and add features. This is exactly what we're planning.

What exactly do you want to here about software engineering? What tools we use? If we use source control? Unit testing? Continues integration? Peer review? Which programming languages?

In the end there's a line between public knowledge and internal logistics. Now in the future when the camera is released we might write about the development process (in general). We'll see.

For now you'll have to take comfort that quality is extremely important to us. That's why Jim started this project and why people work at RED.

ibloom said:
Changes how much? Are we talking ballpark figures hear or down to the minute or second. Today it doesn't matter. The day before someone writes a check for 30-50 grande it does matter and they should have that information. It doesn't matter if things might improve in the future, or that different computers run at different speeds. I hope that you eventually publish benchmarks because this could be a very deep hidden cost that will effect the success of your customers.
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It can change little or much. Depends on what is changing. For example, wavelet decoding time can change a lot by how much compressed data it needs to go through. Since we're tweaking compression levels this obviously affects decode time.

Good news is that it will only get faster with every optimization and new hardware round. Hence: wait with buying you're hardware until you're closer to receiving your RED. There might be new hardware or new software optimizations that lower hardware requirements, etc.

We might publish benchmarks. I have no doubt that the first few RED reservation holders (like Offhollywood & Gibby) will test and publish there findings as well.
 
Laco Zamba said:
Thanks. I remember silver buttons in lower part of EVF view and fps, shutter speed, ... in upper part.
When will we see more?
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That's a Stuart question :shifty: I don't know....
 
Rob Lohman said:
You heard wrong :) We wavelet compress in 12-bits.
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Nice. Where did you publish that? It seems like a departure from the workflow diagram you used to have.

Rob Lohman said:
In the end there's a line between public knowledge and internal logistics. Now in the future when the camera is released we might write about the development process (in general). We'll see.
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Reasonable.

Rob Lohman said:
We might publish benchmarks. I have no doubt that the first few RED reservation holders (like Offhollywood & Gibby) will test and publish there findings as well.
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True.

Thanks.
IBloom
 
Being an early adopter is always risky. In my experience, new equipment is only slightly more reliable than used gear. I'm sure the same will be true of RED. We all know what the camera is supposed to do, but we will not find its limitations until it is in our hands.

You may want to stop envying the guys with the low reservation numbers. They will be the proving ground for the rest of us. We'll get a chance to read their posts about the performance of the camera before we have to dole out the full price.

I'm not sure waiting for two years is the right solution, but being near the back of the line feels OK to me right now. Don't get me wrong. I'm optomisitic about RED, but I'm not going to let my emotions cloud my judgement.

I've read several posts about shooting a feature or documentary right after the camera arrives. I don't know anyone with significant experience who would consider that a prudent plan.
 
RA Post said:
I've read several posts about shooting a feature or documentary right after the camera arrives. I don't know anyone with significant experience who would consider that a prudent plan.
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Hmmm...then here's another one of those posts. I have RED #8 and I have a D-cinema feature and several HDTV series just waiting for #8. The features beta testing RED announced, and the testing of #8 in Los Angeles by a great team of industry professionals, should reveal the caveats and limitations my production crew will need to be aware of for our projects. With the beta testing refinements and team testing results in hand, we won't be the least bit afraid to plunge into production with RED One right out of the gate. Bring it on. Someone needs to do it, and I've waited 20 months for the chance....and you're right, the rest of you will benefit from what the early users report about our experiences.
 
I shot one of the first 24P HDCAM features in 2000 on the F900, while Lucas was shooting "Attack of the Clones", a little indie movie called "Jackpot".

It went fine, no problems in shooting. We had some issues in post getting up to speed on 24P HD post and audio sync issues. I think anyone who shoots a feature on the RED camera immediately will probably not have camera problems, but they will be spending some post time getting the whole workflow worked out as they do it, that's all, especially if they plan on finishing to 4K (even a 4:4:4 1080P post is not necessarily easy for an entire feature if you haven't done it yet.) You have to remember that the average indie feature shooting digitally often shoots 30 to 60 hours of footage, whereas the average indie feature shooting on film shoots more like 20 to 30 hours.

Remembering the problem "Superman Returns" had with their early Genesis cameras (the faint vertical lines that were hard to spot until the efx people noticed them), I think the key, if you are shooting on the RED right away for a feature, is to find a way of occasionally looking at selected footage in 4K, hopefully on a big screen (or magnified/zoomed into on a small screen), to look for problems.
 
I think you raised an excellent point David. "A stitch in time saves nine" definitely applies to the concept of figuring out as much, if not all, of the post workflow before even beginning production. Obviously with a new camera system there will be workflow issues where how you acquire footage on the set or in the field will have a huge impact on the time (and thus expense) spent in post. I’m sure Stuart English (RED's Workflow Wizzard), and other RED Team members, have been planning for RED's recommended field and post workflows. I expect RED to come out with some well-defined workflow recommendations when they finalize the camera system specs. That said, there will be certain nuances that we can only uncover by actual use on the set. Then again, that's where the wisdom of the new beta testing program on features comes in. Hopefully those beta testers will uncover a lot of the caveats and recommendations for the system that we early users can then build upon.

Your point is also excellent for non-scripted genres of EFP production. With the data and storage requirements, guys who are used to shooting copious amounts of footage with video cameras, because tapes are relatively cheap and they store a lot, will need to re-think their approach to acquisition. Though I've worked a lot in unscripted television genres, my original film training has always helped me (and my crews) to save time and money by only pulling the trigger when it was a very good shot, and to think like an editor when we shoot. When you’re not shooting to a script, as in unscripted television, the balance point is to capture the essence of the event, doc, or whatever, because the story will be created and edited from the raw footage – without overshooting so that you inundate the editors with footage, and in the process create unneeded expense and added storage requirements.

The recommendation you made about periodically reviewing footage at full resolution to look for problems is also sage advice. Hopefully the line of 4k panels RED announced at NAB will get into development soon, and be affordable (something I'd expect from RED in view of their other product pricing). A small/mid-sized, battery option, portable 4k panel that is affordable would be mighty nice to have on the set of a RED One feature, or in the field with a RED One EFP production. Then perhaps a 4k EVF option would follow...but I have no knowledge of any plans for such.
 
Thank you, David. It makes sence now.
RAW is RAW. Sensor is 12bit - RAW is 12bit too. I was actualy affraid that REDCODE reduces bits. And table is little bit confusing.
 
Yes, that table is a bit confusing indeed. Sorry about that.

REDCODE RAW is not reducing bits, no worries!
 
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