Red Epic W and first expensive Prime set tips

[Eirik Nicolai Heim]

Hi,

I already have a thread earlier about Cooke S4s and mini s4's, but the investment will not happen before Mars/April and now I have received my trade in Epic W and helium sensor.

The Epic W seems way better when it comes to light sensitivity after my first commercial shoot the last days. We do not have many hours of daylight in the Northern parts of Norway.
Still I think I will not go for the mini S4's because of the less speed you get and the less shallow depth of field.

I really like the look of the Cooke S4 combined with Red dragon sensor, but I have not seen anything with the helium I think and there are no Cooke lenses around to test.
Since I have ruled out the mini S4's there are much more alternatives in the Cooke S4 price range to consider. I will start out with 4-5 lenses.

Any tips or recommendations?
Great lenses for the Helium sensor?


There are no rental house close by and I will be the only one with these kind of high end lenses. I am also thinking about lenses that has the possibility to use EF mounts as well because of there are not many PL customers around. Still there are coming more and more Film and TV-productions to our part of the country because of great locations for example and they will most like carry PL mount cameras.

 

[Marcus Friedlander]

In that price range you are looking at either Ultra Primes or Summicron's as the main competition for the S4's.

You would definitely be happy with any of those sets of lenses but if I had to pick one for me, I would go with Summicron's because I'm partial to the Leica look and the expanded image circle is a big plus when shooting 6k Dragon or 8k Helium.

However, if I had to pick one for the sake of renting out to a brand new market, I would probably go with the Cooke S4's because it'll be easy to sell the "Cooke look" to your clients.

 

[Eirik Nicolai Heim]

Thank you for your thoughts.

Yeah, I guess I will be happy no matter what. It will be a whole other world than Canon L lenses no matter what. They are the standar thing to use around these parts and we use it a lot too.

Guess I am kinda looking for something opposite to the very "digital" look you get out of sharp Canon L glass. How would you describe the Leica vs Cooke when it comes to the look?

 

[Hal Long]

Both Leica and Cooke have what can be described as an organic, softer feel. This refers to how smoothly the bokeh and how focus rolls from sharp to soft areas. The Zeiss look tends to be less soft even in out of focus areas. Of course this varies between models and when they were produced. Contrast in the Leicas and Cookes is similar though Cookes can have a subtle natural vignette (darkening) towards the corners which helps draw the eye towards subjects.

 

[Eirik Nicolai Heim]

Thanks Hal Long. Appreciate all the info I can get. I have read about and understand the reason behind the described "organic and softer feel", but I lack the experience with these kind of lenses. I think both Leica and Cooke looks interesting if they are kind of in the same route. I have seen multiple shows that has the combo Red - Cooke, and loved the look. But I also really like the look of Mr. Robot, and that is a combination of both Leica and Cooke with the Red.

I have heard that the Cooke's are really nice for skin tones and as you say pointing out subjects in the middle.

 

[Hal Long]

It's hard to go wrong with Cooke or Leica. I just shot a commercial on the S4s this week and they're simply beautiful and reliable, but so too are the Summicrons. I have and love my summilux still glass but haven't used the cine luxes yet. I'm also looking forward to seeing the completed Otus set as well to see how it rounds out and what conversions become available.

 

[Samir Patel]

Well, I have shot with the S4s on Helium recently. They looked great. I can't show the footage yet but some things to note regarding them:
I remember focal lengths above 50mm covering 8K.
40mm and below I believe I was at 7.5K WS (which should be the same width as 8KHD (if that becomes a standard anyway)

 

[Eirik Nicolai Heim]

Thanks Samir. That could actually make me lean more against the Leica's as they cover more? Would need wider options at 8k resolution.

 

[Marcus Friedlander]

Then you should definitely look at the Leica's. They just announced a 15mm Summicron that covers 6K Dragon and 8K helium.

 

[Eirik Nicolai Heim]

Seems like Leica will be the way to go then if it is between Cooke and Leica. I think it is a must to have wide options at 8k because of the less field of view when you drop the resolution.

 

[Craig Lees]

Canon FD SSC's have a kinda similar warm Cooke look on a uber budget & look great. The lens Doctor will house them to EF & de lick them for you too. The 55mm f1.2 & 85mm f1.8 are great & are FF35 so no vignetting on FF Dragon / Helium.

Craig Lees
UK

 

[Eirik Nicolai Heim]

Thanks Craig for your input. I will look into it.

This is kind of a stupid question. A lot of my work is for customers who shares the films directly on Facebook or on vimeo/youtube.
How much actual difference will I see in the footage using real cine lenses such as Cooke, Leica, Ultra Primes, compared to my previous work shot on Canon L glass when the delivering to Facebook, vimeo and youtube?

I just have no experience with this kind of lenses, but watch and read a lot and check what kind of tech has been used to shoot that tv-series or movie to get the feel of things.

 

[sreenivasa reddy s]

If you have the budget for the Leica Summilux C, go for them as the first option, Leica Summicrons as the second option in PL mount. For EF mount just get the OTUS, they are brilliant, absolutely no CA and the best rendition of blacks.

 

[Craig Lees]

This is kind of a stupid question. A lot of my work is for customers who shares the films directly on Facebook or on vimeo/youtube.
How much actual difference will I see in the footage using real cine lenses such as Cooke, Leica, Ultra Primes, compared to my previous work shot on Canon L glass when the delivering to Facebook, vimeo and youtube?

I just have no experience with this kind of lenses, but watch and read a lot and check what kind of tech has been used to shoot that tv-series or movie to get the feel of things.

IMHO, focus throw is the only thing plus standardised front/ 0.8mm pitch gears & other mechanicals etc. IF investing in Cine glass, you may as well go full throttle by going for something that goes out a lot on the rental side (anamorphic 2:1/ Supersepdds/ Cookes & their Cooke look/ Arri MP's but it's very hard to invest in something everyone wants as subject matter depicts the DoP's decision at the end of the day.

Though if you're ever looking for a set of 2:1 anamorphic glass for rent in the EU, send me a private message ; )
Craig Lees
UK

 

[Eirik Nicolai Heim]

The Summilux C lenses are out of my budget, but hopefully I could be able to go for the set of six as I see they have that. And Cooke do not have that in the S4 series, just in the mini S4 series.

I am leaning against the Summilux C.

 

[Lauri Hakala]

Check these out:

Tests done with Epic Dragon but should still be helpful.

http://www.thehurlblog.com/lens-tests-leica-summicron-c-vs-cooke-s4-film-education/

http://www.thehurlblog.com/depth-lens-tests-leica-summicron-cs-vs-zeiss-ultra-primes-film-education/

One of the main differences between the summicrons and s4's seems to be that summicrons render the images more flat (neutral) when s4's are more three dimensional.

 

[Satsuki Murashige]

A lot of my work is for customers who shares the films directly on Facebook or on vimeo/youtube. How much actual difference will I see in the footage using real cine lenses such as Cooke, Leica, Ultra Primes, compared to my previous work shot on Canon L glass when the delivering to Facebook, vimeo and youtube?

If you're shooting the exact same thing, in the same shooting style, with the same budget, and the same crew, you won't see much of a difference (especially on highly compressed web videos). Your shots may have more consistent sharpness, contrast, and color from a matched set of high end cinema lenses, versus a mixed assortment of Canon L glass. But those differences may also get ironed out by a heavy color grade.

The main reason people choose different types of lenses is that they can encourage you to shoot in particular ways. For example, simply switching to prime lenses versus using only zooms can change how you shoot. You'll end up using a much smaller range of focal lengths and moving the camera closer or further from the subject to change framing, versus constantly changing the focal length from a static position to adjust your frame. This results in a tangible difference in the look of the footage.

Similarly, when working with parfocal zooms most operators will zoom in to grab focus and then zoom out, whereas with primes one tends to find focus before starting the shot. This again leads to different looking footage. Or as a DP you may plan for more ambitious shots with racking focus, steadicam/gimbal, or dolly/crane shots if you're working with cine lenses with calibrated focus scales and a good focus puller, instead of sticking with zooms from static positions and pulling your own focus if you only have L series zooms.

Some DPs will even put multiple hard light sources in the frame when shooting with anamorphic lenses to get lens flares, which they might otherwise avoid with spherical lenses. So different lenses can have a psychological impact on you and change the way you approach a project. Of course, you can always use a zoom and never touch the zoom ring, or do tracking shots with stills glass, or go flare-crazy with spherical lenses. And sometimes there are good reasons to do so. Other times, it's better to use the more appropriate tool for the job.

 

[Eirik Nicolai Heim]

Thank you very much Satsuki for great input. Really appreciate that.

I wrote that a lot of our work tends to get shared on Facebook or from other web video sharing sites. Still, I do some stuff for big screens and also for TV, and I am working hard to get into more shorts, feature films and TV drama. Apart from the much better workflow with cinema lenses, I also guess that you will see the characteristics of different cine lenses more noticeable on big screens and places not highly compressed?

We have some primes and some zooms, and when I read what you wrote I can think back to many situations where type of lens has pushed me into shooting in one way or another. I try to work with primes as often as I can, cause I like the way I shoot with primes more than zooms and the way it makes me think and plan things, and the look and pictures I get.

It is soon time to decide what to invest in, and if the budget is there in March / April, I guess I will go for the Leica Summicrons, and one big reason is the coverage.

 

[Eirik Nicolai Heim]

Thank you Lauri, did not see your post before now.

After reading and looking at the tests, I am really liking the Cooke S4's. The 3d and the yellow cast in the skin tones. The Cooke was what I was originally looking for and now I am there again. The "problem" is the coverage and how wide I can shoot at 8k with my helium 8k sensor?

 

[Satsuki Murashige]

I do some stuff for big screens and also for TV, and I am working hard to get into more shorts, feature films and TV drama. Apart from the much better workflow with cinema lenses, I also guess that you will see the characteristics of different cine lenses more noticeable on big screens and places not highly compressed?

Yes, I think that's true. Bigger, higher fidelity displays will show more flaws (or characteristics) in the cameras and lenses. I think it's interesting that nowadays we have both an unprecedented demand for small-screen content where the technical standards for excellence are smaller, and also a pixel-peeping culture demanding higher technical standards for its own sake. Not sure what to make of it...

*EDIT. Also, cinema lenses don't always make for a better workflow. Often on documentary shoots, a few L series zooms can be easier and faster to work with than a set of Cooke primes. So it all depends on the project.

It is soon time to decide what to invest in, and if the budget is there in March / April, I guess I will go for the Leica Summicrons, and one big reason is the coverage.

I think whatever you decide to get, make sure to get your hands on as many options as you can and shoot tests before committing that much money. Even if you don't live near a rental house, the cost of a plane ticket, a hotel, and a few days of testing at a rental house or lens service facility is much cheaper than spending $30-100K on a set of cine lenses, sight unseen. Some things you really can't know until you try it for yourself.