RED Dragon vs. 65mm film...

[Matt Ryan]

Jarred didn't say definitively that there would be no HDRx, but his implications were that it is not going to be included when the Dragon awakes.

I thought he just said Dragon effectively killed HDRX?

Wouldn't that just imply that the latitude was like HDRX so you probably wont need it? I hope it's still there for several reasons, stills, really high DR scenes if we want to capture really bright lights, etc. Would be fun to use 22 stops total to see what it looks like.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

I thought he just said Dragon effectively killed HDRX?

Wouldn't that just imply that the latitude was like HDRX so you probably wont need it? I hope it's still there for several reasons, stills, really high DR scenes if we want to capture really bright lights, etc. Would be fun to use 22 stops total to see what it looks like.

There is this slight question of SSD's vs compression/bandwith at 6k and possibly higher bitdepth in the images and implication for datarates...

 

[Matt Ryan]

There is this slight question of SSD's vs compression/bandwith at 6k and possibly higher bitdepth in the images and implication for datarates...

very true, but hope HDRX isn't lost. It was a great invention in the camera's.

 

[Emanuel A.]

Sorry, somebody on Cinematography.com said the 16th century never happened? Who was that? How would they know?
And how would that get onto a cinematography forum anyway? I think all they had then was the Camera Obscura..

Well it doesn't matter; the world ends on Dec 21st anyway.

Did you know that the square root of 2012 is about 44.9, which is frighteningly close to the estimated size of the "cubit", the unit of length most used in the Bible?
So a square cubit is almost exactly 2012 square centimeters! What more proof do you need?!
The Book of Eli was really a prophecy, and it was shot with a Red camera...

Well, last time I checked, cinematography.com forums were opened to all departments of this "industry"... besides, here's a good line to say that this story began long time ago or am I missing anything...? :X On the XVI century analogy, I forgot they (analogies) are usually on screenplay or shooting script but, if people don't pay attention to all the lines or between the lines ; ) there's no way how to get the right line I guess, not the case of well-known performers though ;-)

Who mentioned (blockbuster-)signs?

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/nicolas-cage-vampire-letterman-ghost-rider-289323

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/john-travolta-time-traveler-nicolas-cage-vampire-242608

Hey, wait :bigear: but that's hollywood reporter! :001_rolleyes:

 

[Max Nguyen]

Well it doesn't matter; the world ends on Dec 21st anyway.

Did you know that the square root of 2012 is about 44.9, which is frighteningly close to the estimated size of the "cubit", the unit of length most used in the Bible?
So a square cubit is almost exactly 2012 square centimeters! What more proof do you need?!

The end of the world story has been with us since the beginning. We like to see full narratives. The scientific method is basically a narrative. Observation, hypothesis, etc... Then conclusion. Bam. You solved a problem that helps the species survive. This built in need for the conclusion is what fuels the end of the world thing.

I am thinking that the end of 2012 marks the destruction/evolution of the world as we knew it. There are a lot of things going on in the world of science and the Geo-political, but let's stick to the world of cinema, since we are on a cinema forum. Odemax and Redray could well be the Armageddon of the established tradition. I don't now how it's gonna turn out, but hot d**n, these guys sound like they are on to something.

 

[Dan Frenkel]

ANYONE thinking its the end of the world on here and you wanna sell your EPICS or whatever, I'll take them from you....Just sayin!! I plan on stayin around for a bit, fuck the MAYANS!!

 

[Nathaniel Opgenorth]

Sorry, somebody on Cinematography.com said the 16th century never happened? Who was that? How would they know?
And how would that get onto a cinematography forum anyway? I think all they had then was the Camera Obscura..

Well it doesn't matter; the world ends on Dec 21st anyway.

Did you know that the square root of 2012 is about 44.9, which is frighteningly close to the estimated size of the "cubit", the unit of length most used in the Bible?
So a square cubit is almost exactly 2012 square centimeters! What more proof do you need?!
The Book of Eli was really a prophecy, and it was shot with a Red camera...

While I love The Book of Eli I gotta say I laughed a bit XD

Back to Dragon, if we have 16 stops native DR, with HDRX does that give us 22 stops?

Abandoning HDRX would be a mistake...the whole bandwidth issue doesn't seam to be an issue if the camera can do 6K at more than 48fps..if I'm wrong I will gladly take HDRX at 4.5K even. Thing of all the new possibilities that 22 stops could give you? You could potentially avoid graduated filters in absurd lighting, etc. I'm so excited about it I can't even think of examples of the times I've wanted to pull highlights and shadows out of the death!

There is this slight question of SSD's vs compression/bandwith at 6k and possibly higher bitdepth in the images and implication for datarates...

Gunleik I gotta say your quite the sharp guy when it comes to allot of areas...any guestimations on the need to potentially increase bit depth? I find this stuff fascinating as well as important to the art form.

ANYONE thinking its the end of the world on here and you wanna sell your EPICS or whatever, I'll take them from you....Just sayin!! I plan on stayin around for a bit, fuck the MAYANS!!

Agreed if anyone wants to hand me an Epic, Scarlet or even R1MX I will gladly take the inferior product off your hands

 

[Max Nguyen]

ANYONE thinking its the end of the world on here and you wanna sell your EPICS or whatever, I'll take them from you....Just sayin!! I plan on stayin around for a bit, fuck the MAYANS!!

Lol. Guess we are gonna have a bidding war. Since we are talking about the Mayans, they excavated a dwelling that had stuff written on the walls that looked like calender stuff. They surmised that it was a scribe's dwelling. Guess what? He was working on the calender past 2012.

 

[Keith Walters]

Jarred didn't say definitively that there would be no HDRx, but his implications were that it is not going to be included when the Dragon awakes.

There is no lens ever made that's going to give an optical image with a range of 22 stops, so it would be a trifle pointless.

 

[Keith Walters]

Well if it comes from the mouth of Julia "There will be no carbon tax" Gillard, we can be pretty sure it won't happen!:sarcasm:

 

[Pawel Achtel]

There is no lens ever made that's going to give an optical image with a range of 22 stops, so it would be a trifle pointless.

True, but using HDRx or similar temporal aggregation method there is no such limitation. :hand:

You can record 100 stops using a lens that may have "only" 20 stops or whatever. You can tade temporal resolution for dynamic range just as you can trade temporal resolution for spacial resolution and vice versa.

So, I welcome 16 stops and respectfully disagree with Jarred :biggrin:

 

[Max Nguyen]

There is no lens ever made that's going to give an optical image with a range of 22 stops, so it would be a trifle pointless.

I'm going to make a bold statement here. We have been constrained by our silicon constructs for a while now. We could not move beyond glass. Now we are starting to get into nano-materials and all that. Mark my words. There will be something beyond that limitation within 5-7 years.

 

[Vadim Bobkovsky]

I'm going to make a bold statement here. We have been constrained by our silicon constructs for a while now. We could not move beyond glass. Now we are starting to get into nano-materials and all that. Mark my words. There will be something beyond that limitation within 5-7 years.

Oh yeah, I hope I'm still around when they'll come up with some crazy future optics and stuff. I imagine some uber-futuristic lens, which behaves like organic eye and goes far beyond... Okay, back to 2012 and my tiny lil set of vintage mechanical preciouses, lol

 

[Ale Houston]

Hi guys! being 12/12/12 and all that BS.. and being 2012 the year of the Dragon (chinese horoscope and all that BS).. how about you letting loose a couple of stills from the Dragon so we can appreciate the beauty of this beast??.. talking about footage here, not pics of the actual bad guy... really sorry for being so pushy with this, but I guess you understand the anxiety we all feel about this..

 

[Rolf Kestermann]

I dug a little bit more about it, and here's what I found: (please don't shoot the messenger!).
There is not one concrete answer when is about to compare resolution of film against digital, because film doesn't have to bother with pixels.
But if all you want to do is count pixels, here are the facts:


First of all, film can resolve insanely fine details.


With film, the image is continuous in all three dimensions: x, y, and z (intensity).


With film, you get the same resolution at color transitions (green/magenta, for instance) as you get for light/dark transitions.


With film, you have complete R, G, and B resolution at every point.


Film is rated to resolve 160 lines per millimeter. This is the finest level of detail it can resolve, at which point its MTF just about hits zero.


Each line will require one light and one dark pixel, or two pixels. Thus it will take about 320 pixels per millimeter to represent what's on film.


320 pixels x 320 pixels is 0.1MP per square millimeter.


35mm film is 24 x 36mm, or 864 square millimeters.


To scan most of the detail on a 35mm frame, you'll need about 864 x 0.1, or 87 Megapixels. (lets call that: 9.3K)


each film pixel represents true R, G and B data, not the softer Bayer interpolated data from digital camera sensors. A single-chip 9.3K digital camera still can't see details as fine as a piece of 35mm film.


Since the lie factor from digital cameras is about two, you'd need a digital camera of about 87 x 2 = 175 MP (18.6K) to see every last detail that makes onto film.


Its natural response is similar to our eyes.






The good news is: according to the experts, the average human eye can't resolve more than 10K at ANY distance, so that will be the end of the pixel count race.

One thing to consider in Your math is that Film is made of color layers and that the grain itself is composed different for each frame, which again moves within the gate for
each frame, and does so for all the printing and projection steps in motion picture, plus its not 36X24 but smaller than 24 by something.

 

[Taylor F.]

Say... you guys aren't really gonna make us wait til xmas to put a little Dragon footage in our stockings, are you?

 

[Marc Wielage]

And ironically, it appears that all the films most likely to get Oscar nominations for Best Cinematography this year were shot on film:

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/why-argo-dark-knight-rises-400866

Django Unchained
The Dark Knight Rises
Les Miserables
Anna Karenina
Lincoln
The Master
Beasts of the Southern Wild
and (most of) Argo

I personally thought Avengers, Skyfall, Life of Pi, and The Hobbit were worthy of nominations as well, but we'll have to wait and see what actually makes the final vote.

 

[Rick Dorrington]

Not sure if this has been adressed but, if we are waiting to buy an Epic once dragon is released are the Epics just going up 6k (in price)?

 

[Kemalettin Sert]

And ironically, it appears that all the films most likely to get Oscar nominations for Best Cinematography this year were shot on film:

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/why-argo-dark-knight-rises-400866

Django Unchained
The Dark Knight Rises
Les Miserables
Anna Karenina
Lincoln
The Master
Beasts of the Southern Wild
and (most of) Argo

I personally thought Avengers, Skyfall, Life of Pi, and The Hobbit were worthy of nominations as well, but we'll have to wait and see what actually makes the final vote.

because cinema is about storytelling and acting than camera itself.

 

[Stacey Spears]

Not sure if this has been adressed but, if we are waiting to buy an Epic once dragon is released are the Epics just going up 6k (in price)?

Unknown at this point. When the RED ONE started selling with the MX chip in it, it was more expensive than the ugprade price.