RED Dragon vs. 65mm film...

[Keith Walters]

IIRC, it was around the middle of 2007 when Graeme posted how much he liked listening to old vinyl records, saying the music had a certain warmth to it. I still remember that post and often wonder how this man could be so dedicated to analog and yet, be the driving force in helping digital become dominate? Of course, it's probably nostalgia that keeps him connected to analog music. And I'm sure nostalgia is what causes people to cling to film... Tarentino as an example.

Newer generations likely don't have that nostalgic connection and are probably better equipped to judge any viability of digital over film. And of course you have certain famous directors and DPs who can think outside of the nostalgic box and have chosen digital when they could have shot film. I guess I'm making excuses for people who are defending film, as being a product of their times for the most part. In the end they will be stuck at a certain level while those who embrace the future will be able to progress.

Graeme also likes Valve (Tube) amplifiers!
Somewhat off-topic, check out this web site http://www.vase.com.au/index.php
Vase was Australia's #1 manufacturer of Guitar Amplifiers for many years but closed down decades ago.
I have Vase Trendsetter 60 I bought second-hand back in 1976. I've still got it, and a couple of years ago I started looking at restoring it. I did a web search for any information on Vase amps, and Lo and Behold a successsful Audio engineer and Vase fan has resurrected the company, and is busily turning out Tube Amps identical to the ones they made back in the 60s/70s!

My amp had a loud hum which I thought might be due to a dried-out 40 year old electrolytic capacitor. I wiggled one of the preamp tubes in its socket, and that was all it was. Not bad for a 40 year old amp that I hadn't used for 15 years! Tubes are So-o-o unreliable, yeah, right!

 

[Emanuel A.]

(...) Now, 100.000 people right now will agree with me that this $600 camera, it has the best movie-looking-life-like-skin-tones ever, even when we all know, that is a low end DSLR, is not a cinema camera, doesn't have a full frame sensor, or high dynamic range and high frame rates, and most important, is not even a 2K sensor camera. (...)

That aliasing seems a perfect bitch! : ) To whom is right now in Moscow to shoot the last wide shots for a feature movie entirely shot on DSLRs made by filmmaker's gang factory, there's nothing significant more to say ;-)

 

[Rob Castiglione]

I am very conflicted about the whole film/digital thing. I love my valve preamps and I love the look of film. Some people are doing right in right the sound world - it all depends upon the interface between the analog - digital conversion. Dan Lavry is an example. I only hope that the engineering is being tempered by other considerations. If any one can do it, Red can.

 

[Michel Hafner]

Film is rated to resolve 160 lines per millimeter. This is the finest level of detail it can resolve, at which point its MTF just about hits zero.

That's with ideal conditions that are very rarely reached when shooting in the real world.

Each line will require one light and one dark pixel, or two pixels. Thus it will take about 320 pixels per millimeter to represent what's on film.

No. Each line is one pixel. You confuse lines and line pairs. Modern 35mm is more or less equivalent to 4K, not 8 or 9 K.

 

[Jannard]

Keith... how are you doing? We haven't butted heads for quite some time.

I hope all is well with you.

Jim

Graeme also likes Valve (Tube) amplifiers!
Somewhat off-topic, check out this web site http://www.vase.com.au/index.php
Vase was Australia's #1 manufacturer of Guitar Amplifiers for many years but closed down decades ago.
I have Vase Trendsetter 60 I bought second-hand back in 1976. I've still got it, and a couple of years ago I started looking at restoring it. I did a web search for any information on Vase amps, and Lo and Behold a successsful Audio engineer and Vase fan has resurrected the company, and is busily turning out Tube Amps identical to the ones they made back in the 60s/70s!

My amp had a loud hum which I thought might be due to a dried-out 40 year old electrolytic capacitor. I wiggled one of the preamp tubes in its socket, and that was all it was. Not bad for a 40 year old amp that I hadn't used for 15 years! Tubes are So-o-o unreliable, yeah, right!

 

[Keith Walters]

Keith... how are you doing? We haven't butted heads for quite some time.

I hope all is well with you.

Jim

I'm afraid the life has pretty much gone of cinematography discussion over the past couple of years. There was a time when you could get really useful information on forums like Cinematography.com, (as well as endless opportunities to take the piss out of loudmouth know-nothing nobodies trying to pass themselves off as Industry players).
But now the peabrains have mostly retreated back to whatever planet they were expelled from, and even if we say something positive about your products, the usual suspects still slide out of the woodwork calling us nasty names, which means they don't even read our posts.
I was tossing up whether to start a thread about you new Redray/projection/distribution systems, but the last two I started on that subject ended up getting closed, and I never really learned anything useful anyway.
If I post on here, threads have a habit of disappearing without a trace, or I get banned but I've never been able to figure out exactly what I said to warrant it (I've learned keep to keep screen grabs as a reference).
I guess I've moved on.

 

[Peter Karlsson]

Pretty safe to say that Dragon killed HDRx...

I hope that your comment was only a comparision between the Mysterium-x HDRx amount of stops and the Dragons native amount of stops, and not actually killing HDRx as a feature for the Dragon sensor since HDRx for the Dragon makes more sense than for the Mysterium-X? HDRx for the Dragon would be more usefull for HDRI environment post light, and the X track would be much more pleasant to work with in 3D tracking since the noise floor would be less (Mysterium-X X-tracks are in many situation a little hard to work with).

 

[Jannard]

There is probably a knee-jerk reaction to your posts given our history. You are a smart guy that has a lot to offer as long as you keep your dark side to a minimum.

I don't hold grudges. I'd love to see you post productive info... which you are certainly capable of.

Jim

I'm afraid the life has pretty much gone of cinematography discussion over the past couple of years. There was a time when you could get really useful information on forums like Cinematography.com, (as well as endless opportunities to take the piss out of loudmouth know-nothing nobodies trying to pass themselves off as Industry players).
But now the peabrains have mostly retreated back to whatever planet they were expelled from, and even if we say something positive about your products, the usual suspects still slide out of the woodwork calling us nasty names, which means they don't even read our posts.
I was tossing up whether to start a thread about you new Redray/projection/distribution systems, but the last two I started on that subject ended up getting closed, and I never really learned anything useful anyway.
If I post on here, threads have a habit of disappearing without a trace, or I get banned but I've never been able to figure out exactly what I said to warrant it (I've learned keep to keep screen grabs as a reference).
I guess I've moved on.

 

[Rainer Fritz]

Can't wait to see a sample image.... pse share one with us....
15 stops DR right out of the box sounds amazing. with the meizler hooked up it will define the future standard again.
Will we see a tuned redrocket for 6k ??

 

[Thibaut de Chemellier]

How better will be rolling shutter issue with Dragon ? ...doing a fast pan with actual cmos sensors just make me sick.

 

[Matthew Scott]

There is probably a knee-jerk reaction to your posts given our history. You are a smart guy that has a lot to offer as long as you keep your dark side to a minimum.

I don't hold grudges. I'd love to see you post productive info... which you are certainly capable of.

Jim

Saving your last two posts (to 8000) for something of a fire breathing nature?

 

[Keith Walters]

There is probably a knee-jerk reaction to your posts given our history. You are a smart guy that has a lot to offer as long as you keep your dark side to a minimum.

I don't hold grudges.

Jim

Unfortunately I do, although it's not really what people normally understand the term to mean.
Essentially, people or tings just fade into the background noise and become irrelevant.

I'd love to see you post productive info... which you are certainly capable of.

(Not referring to anybody in particular) I'm afraid saying somebody is 100% talking with a megaphone stuck up their ass is never regarded as productive, even when one is 100.0000% correct in saying that.
There's apparently some sort of hard-wired inhibitory reflex that stops most people saying that sort of thing, but it doesn't appear to have ever been switched on in my brain.
I am not a corporate whore, never was, never will be.
I'm afraid you will have to live with that.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

I do remember with some fondness, the exchanges between you two guys...

 

[Will Keir]

Keith, I admire your boldness.

I believe Jim is a different type of CEO then those you are used to. You are a warrior, Jim is a leader, there is a reason you butt heads. Just remember, were playing for the same team and there is work to be done in this world. If we spend all our energy squabbling, then we'll have to live with the world we passed on when our children inherit our mess.

I am not a corporate whore, never was, never will be.
I'm afraid you will have to live with that.

 

[Emanuel A.]

I'm afraid the life has pretty much gone of cinematography discussion over the past couple of years. There was a time when you could get really useful information on forums like Cinematography.com, (as well as endless opportunities to take the piss out of loudmouth know-nothing nobodies trying to pass themselves off as Industry players).
But now the peabrains have mostly retreated back to whatever planet they were expelled from, and even if we say something positive about your products, the usual suspects still slide out of the woodwork calling us nasty names, which means they don't even read our posts.

I guess you're not referring who invited you several times to come and list here your thoughts addressed to this community, rather than into the inner circle aka usual suspects in someone's else dictionary. Because that industry you're talking about is only a fiction inside someone's head. There isn't one sole industry but several of similar kind in the same industrial sector, yes (as for instance, I don't watch blockbusters anymore since my 20s when I started to literally be used to sleep during the screenings) as same as many departments in the motion picture business(es).

Whether any one still wants to believe in the geocentric model, whether not. It is useless to pretend that the 16th century never existed, because it happened anyway, despite the efforts of whoever to deny it.

 

[Nathaniel Opgenorth]

Dragon should never be compared to 35mm? Is that marketing hype or a serious statement? If its marketing hype then I'm okay with that...Until it has a 65mm sized sensor or even just an 8-perf VistaVision style sensor I'm going to compare it....I think it would be wise that others compare it as well. I DO respect both RED Digital but I think its sort of closed minded to think that 35mm can't compare to Dragon...that said I'd love to have Wally Pfister with Chris Nolan do a demo as I know they are hardcore film guys and if Chris Nolan had a short story it could only make the image look better combined with Pfisters experience. Roger Deakins is sure to be interested...I know he likes Alexa but if Dragon exceeds film DR you gotta be interested. Film has allot of numbers and science in it no doubt but inevitably it is an art form that is in the eye of the beholder. (I'm super excited for this though!).

I agree that there will always be a group that doesn't think digital is as good as film. Personally, I love digital and I love digital even more when its shot Anamorphic. I really hope that Red is still developing a FF 35 sensor (dragon tech) to better accommodate 2x anamorphic lens. I think if red could develop a set of anamorphic lens's to go along with that FF35 sensor they would make a killing. I know they are extremely hard to develop and cost a lot of money. But if anyone can do it Red can. I can't wait to see what red's doing behind the scenes with their lenses. I know something is cooking back there.

I'm an anamorphic fanboy so what I say is liable to be ridiculously biased and full of excitement. RED Please make some anamorphic optics! Part of the film look that I love so much is anamorphic artifacts (not that all film is anamorphic, I just prefer anamorphic to flat). Also It adds resolution (some debate this) when done right but without giving you the headache of more physical pixels...flat 2.35:1 is decent but true anamorphic scope is magical filmic bliss (yeah I said that!)!!

How better will be rolling shutter issue with Dragon ? ...doing a fast pan with actual cmos sensors just make me sick.

I think this is important. I really like the Alexa's mechanical shutter option and Sony's Global Shutter concept (even if I'm not a fan of everything Sony...)..I think less rolling shutter is going to make it so we don't have to carefully watch out for our action scenes turning into Jello ;P

Can't wait to see a sample image.... pse share one with us....
15 stops DR right out of the box sounds amazing. with the meizler hooked up it will define the future standard again.
Will we see a tuned redrocket for 6k ??

I think its sort of strange that the REDROCKET can't handle the B&W RED footage...I can understand 6K "exceeding" its ability but I can only hope RED will make a better future proof REDROCKET in the future...its not even the issue of buying new ones every time they get updated or slower workflows without its help its just sort of point of principle I suppose. I mean I guess you could downsample to 4K in post and be able to use the REDROCKET? Is that possible? I know in REDCINE you can export to custom resolutions but can you export REDCODE out of REDCINE? I know it sounds stupid but I'm curious...not that Ill be editing footage thats over 4.5K anytime soon as my computer is the bottleneck of things at the moment.

There's apparently some sort of hard-wired inhibitory reflex that stops most people saying that sort of thing, but it doesn't appear to have ever been switched on in my brain.
I am not a corporate whore, never was, never will be.
I'm afraid you will have to live with that.

No comment on the other stuff but I do have to say we need more people like this even if we are considered "combative" or "arrogant" or "a**holes"! I guess people often don't understand the difference between simple constructive confrontation and baseless snipes or criticism leading to useless arguments.

 

[Keith Walters]

I guess you're not referring who invited you several times to come and list here your thoughts addressed to this community, rather than into the inner circle aka usual suspects in someone's else dictionary. Because that industry you're talking about is only a fiction inside someone's head. There isn't one sole industry but several of similar kind in the same industrial sector, yes (as for instance, I don't watch blockbusters anymore since my 20s when I started to literally be used to sleep during the screenings) as same as many departments in the motion picture business(es).

Whether any one still wants to believe in the geocentric model, whether not. It is useless to pretend that the 16th century never existed, because it happened anyway, despite the efforts of whoever to deny it.

Sorry, somebody on Cinematography.com said the 16th century never happened? Who was that? How would they know?
And how would that get onto a cinematography forum anyway? I think all they had then was the Camera Obscura..

Well it doesn't matter; the world ends on Dec 21st anyway.

Did you know that the square root of 2012 is about 44.9, which is frighteningly close to the estimated size of the "cubit", the unit of length most used in the Bible?
So a square cubit is almost exactly 2012 square centimeters! What more proof do you need?!
The Book of Eli was really a prophecy, and it was shot with a Red camera...

 

[Elsie N]

Sorry, somebody on Cinematography.com said the 16th century never happened? Who was that? How would they know?
And how would that get onto a cinematography forum anyway? I think all they had then was the Camera Obscura..

Well it doesn't matter; the world ends on Dec 21st anyway.

Did you know that the square root of 2012 is about 44.9, which is frighteningly close to the estimated size of the "cubit", the unit of length most used in the Bible?
So a square cubit is almost exactly 2012 square centimeters! What more proof do you need?!
The Book of Eli was really a prophecy, and it was shot with a Red camera...

Oh great! Now he tells us we gotta build an ark before December 21st. A little more headsup woulda' been nice, Keith.

(You don't happen to have a cubit measure on your tool belt, do ya) '-)

 

[Matt Ryan]

Not sure how we got into a biblical discussion, but pretty sure the bible says no one will know or predict the end of the world. There are signs, but there have been since the beginning of time.

Back to Dragon, if we have 16 stops native DR, with HDRX does that give us 22 stops?

 

[Elsie N]

Not sure how we got into a biblical discussion, but pretty sure the bible says no one will know or predict the end of the world. There are signs, but there have been since the beginning of time.

Back to Dragon, if we have 16 stops native DR, with HDRX does that give us 22 stops?

Jarred didn't say definitively that there would be no HDRx, but his implications were that it is not going to be included when the Dragon awakes.