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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

RED DRAGON sensor on RED ONE ?

L. Langer said:
People that don't know what EoL means from a business standpoint have no idea what we are talking about and yes, I have seen and used both RED-MX and EPIC recently.

Just to back up what I said in here...

"Red One is not end of life but close" - Mike Seymour

That was tweeted from the launch event per what was being said by RED.


"Obsolescence Obsolete... we said it. We believe it. We are delivering it. The RED ONE was advertised as such. But we realized that it could not live up to the ongoing advancements we had envisioned, even though we offered the MX sensor upgrade which is well beyond what any company had ever done for their customers. So we developed EPIC. And we gave our RED ONE customers a way to upgrade to EPIC without any pain. Stage 2 and Stage 3 are our solutions to Obsolescence Obsolete. Choose one if you are a RED ONE owner. They are your choices. Don't think past these choices... anything beyond these are not fair to us." - Jim Jannard on REDUSER @ 03-22-2011, 02:23 AM
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Red One MX has higher frame and data rates possible (such as 3K at 60fps and 2K at 120) than an Scarlet X I also prefer the form factor to Epic in many cases, and absolutely adore the Red Drives. Red without MX had glaring shortcomings in terms of low light usability and the quality/texture of the noise - but with Mx I never say "Gee I wish I had a better camera so I could have gotten that shot" Just never - except for high res slomo.
 
Rob Ruffo said:
Red One MX has higher frame and data rates possible (such as 3K at 60fps and 2K at 120) than an Scarlet X I also prefer the form factor to Epic in many cases, and absolutely adore the Red Drives. Red without MX had glaring shortcomings in terms of low light usability and the quality/texture of the noise - but with Mx I never say "Gee I wish I had a better camera so I could have gotten that shot" Just never - except for high res slomo.
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I like the form factor too.. I can shoulder mount the epic like I can with red one...

I don't like clumsy rigs.. i just throw it on my shoulder pad and I'm good to go... but I'm telling you...

a carbon fiber body might be amazing.. I'm going to look into making carbon fiber pieces.. top and sides.. ill leave the front end in tact.. and base
 
Miltos Pilalitos said:
Unless something dramatic has changed (and with RED it always does), the RED ONE will be upgraded with the new sensor.

I know that because I had asked Jim myself in this very forum more than a year ago. Of course back then the sensor was called Monstro.
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I'm still planning on this myself. RED One was supposed to be upgradeable to Monstro when the time came. Of course, it was about a year or so ago the last anything was said about this. At NAB, Ted was saying that "Dragon" is the first of the "Monstro" chips or something to that effect.

I'm hoping it's upgradeable.
 
Hope your right Jeff,

I would be surpriced if they did drop the R1 support. Its a cool camera and for stills i use a hasselblad, that epic cant compete against in my view. They may have to modify the R1 quite a lot to do this but of course its technically possible somehow. I just hope it is financially viable as well.
 
For people that don't know what End-of-Life means:

End-of-life (EOL) is a term used with respect to a product supplied to customers, indicating that the product is in the end of its useful lifetime and a vendor will no longer be marketing, selling, or sustaining a particular product and may also be limiting or ending support for the product.

Meaning if the RedOne is EOL, it will no longer be produced by Red. That's it. Doesn't mean it won't be a useable tool/camera.
 
gains vs. costs

gains vs. costs

Since the REDONE (tm) only uses a 12bit REDCODE (tm) recording path upgrading the sensor board would maybe only result is slight improvements.

Adding additional LOG and FPN processing, and re-working REDCINE-X (tm) to deal with that might get an extra stop of ISO, but probably not as much as you see in EPIC (tm).

So the question is what is the ratio of the upgrade cost vs. just selling the REDONE (tm) and purchasing SCARLET-X (tm) or EPIC (tm)?

What ratio of REDONE (tm) owners would spend another $5000 or so to get a slight improvement over the M-X sensor board?
 
We will have to wait and see. But you do make valid points, Dan. There is potential benefit, even with the 12bit nature of the RED One, it would still share in the same image quality and exposure abilities, dynamic range, etc.., it would only lack in precision of the data captured due to the lower bit depth. OTOH, it's possible that certain data paths could be upgraded as well. And yet, at what cost? It just may not make economical sense to do so in light of Scarlet-X being available for < $10K now and already on the upgrade map.
 
Can you guys fill me in on how Scarlet really is better. If i understand correctly (shooting for tv that is) you must shoot 3k and then you have of course cropping factors and even now when i shoot 2k or 3k on my Epic....i'm not happy with the less than sharp images i see and not to mention the narrower field of view. So....just based on this i see my Red 1 as still a better option than Scarlet. I was close to pulling trigger on a deposit for Scrarlet until i realized i'm not going to be shooting the entire sensor....I'm not trying to cause panica or an argument here, but from what i know about shooting "down" from 4k to 3k or 2k or 5k to 2k.....i will do that when i need to, but i'm not as pleased with the results as when i can shoot the full Sensor at 4k on my R1 or 5k on my Epics.

Thoughts or comments about this?
 
If Jim remains committed to rewarding original R1 owners with any Monstro upgrade there probably aren't that many who would be eligible...there's been a huge whack of R1's (both MX'd and not) sold since the Epic-Ms arrived, and now with Stage 2 shipping, and Stage 3 about to happen.

As one who has retained his #1379 I'd be ecstatic that I chose to hang onto this camera even though I've had offers to sell -if in fact there was something to be done to enable Monstro within the body of the R1.

Naturally there would have to be added expense beyond the sensor swap.

The timing is also challenging since there are likely people wanting to dump their R1's for Scarlet between now and 2nd half of 2012 (as Jim stated on the 3rd), thereby reducing the number of original R1 owners.

It might just be me being optimistic but there's something about the way Jim operates that would have me believe he will help out those who haven't sold their R1's (and likely move to the front of the line when Monstro is available as reward for dedication)...especially when I read a post this past summer where he lamented the fact people were punting their cameras and re-selling on reduser...that pissed him off.

Time will tell.
 
Terry VerHaar said:
i, too, seem to remember that RED One will not be able to be upgraded to Dragon.
Click to expand...

I'm sure I remember this too, although I can't find a reference. I also thought I read some sort of 'RED One approaching eol' statement during the Scarlet announcement on Nov 3rd. Although, again, can't find a reference.

That doesn't mean it won't remain a good camera and of course 'everything is subject to change'.
 
the story so far..

the red one was not properly future proofed The phrase "Obscel O" etc was probably meant to mean 4k is more than you'll ever need.. though I personally assumed (wrongly) that they meant upgradeable (for ever until the universe explodes or a quasar hits my sensor etc)..which was totally realistic.

The problem we're told is that it would require new processors, one of the important features of a technologically advanced product that don't ever need to be upgraded.. <cough> of course there is plenty of room for new processors

so instead we were offered a super-expensive upgrade to Epic so that everything can be upgraded and the OO moto holds true.. but

The Epic was originally LESS upgradeable than a R1, since the brain module is basically a new camera.. only accessories can be recycled..

so going from MX (old news) -> Monstro (new technology, bleeding edge etc) got five times more expensive as you needed a complete new brain (note to Red, a modular system needs ALL important components to be modular or upgradeable..).. but who cares about DR, right? ..so now

Red have announced that Monstro will make it to Epic, via a sensor upgrade.. so now its as future proofed as the R1 was.. at last

Monstro probably won't make it to the Red 1 (Jim has said this in the past, unless he changed his mind etc and I missed it), although I for one would have liked that, even at cropped sensor size (like an MX is now on a R1), and lower data rates, and possibly a lower colour bit depth.. but benefitting from extra DR hopefully.. anyway

Apart from prices, I think Red are being pretty flexible.. just wish they'd price their products based on what they cost, and not what other companies think they can get away with IMHO

I could imagine a world where sensors can be swapped out during shoots, where maybe different sensors are optimized for different tasks.. in the same way film stock was a creative choice, rather than everyone using just one homogeneous type..

Red have the technology.. lets hope their business model withstands the storm..
 
Upgrading red1 would make a perfect sense, it would give another life to aging R1s and make it very attractive camera with attractive price point..
 
Although they already reinvented the R1 with the MX sensor and SSD Side Module...those two things made it a new camera, and of course it's still relevant today.

It hasn't had a firmware update in a long while...and will likely take a back seat while Epics are Scarlets make their way across the globe. Plus, there's still Red Ray and Red Projector to release.
 
"I'm hoping it's upgradeable." ..??
 
I know this is an old thread, but the only thing that I could see being an upgrade option for the RED One at this point is to open up the SSD module to third parties or for RED themselves to make a direct off-the-shelf SSD drive adapter with a list of approved SSD drives or required drive specifications because surely new SSDs have reached the required data rates for RED 4.5K footage if not just 4K as a slight tradeoff. That would more or less future proof the camera for a long while but since it is a discontinued product it most likely won't happen unless a third-party stepped in to make such a thing and get it licensed from RED. Personally, if I had the money, I would trade my RED One in for a new Epic-W but on my budget at this point I would have to hope that Epic MX and Dragon prices fall further down on the used market so I can simply use the accessories and 1.8" 128gb drives I already have. Still, the RED One MX is a great camera and cameras in 2017, even those coming down the line later this year, still can't do everything that it does, which is why I'm going to be filming my first feature with the RED One MX very soon and have no worry about quality, features, or nailing that cinematic look, it truly has it all! :)
 
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