Red Dragon DSMC depreciation

[Ben Scott]

I think the biggest issue is not so much depreciation of a purchased and used camera, but rather year + wait times from ordering to receiving a camera, during which time ANOTHER sensor / camera has been unveiled and becomes the hot property people want. That's the 'perceived' value in the marketplace.

 

[David Battistella]

I see this come up a lot over the years when new models are introduced. The camera in your hands only depreciates when it is sold. That is when the value is determined.

I tend to ask this question.

Has the quality of the images of my camera depreciated?

Funny, the answer always seems to be that the images have actually "appreciated" with the iterations of new color science.

Don't get to caught up in value. Sure, purchase price or sell price might change, but that doesn't change the "value" of the camera in your hands and the images it creates.

David

 

[Leroy Jackson]

Leroy....I fell you man. Its crazy.....I have seen the prices on some Dragon packages to date.

I look at where I started with the Scarlet going to Epic than Dragon. Now the options are insane. Its like going to Mercedes and having a 550, 550 S and 550 SR. These options have changed the game. But in response to your thread, to get a used Dragon (Carbon) at that price-point....... even used is crazy and it does affect pricing somewhat. Being that I went through several upgrades, naturally I want the Epic W upgrade......but some threads have pointed out certain trade-offs like the high frame rates for low light with the Epic W. What can you say.......the upgrade path is unique however

I hear ya man. I'm sticking with my Dragon. I seen a Epic-W body for 22K O.B.O that's already 7k off of the new price lol.

 

[Ben Scott]

I see this come up a lot over the years when new models are introduced. The camera in your hands only depreciates when it is sold. That is when the value is determined.

I tend to ask this question.

Has the quality of the images of my camera depreciated?

Funny, the answer always seems to be that the images have actually "appreciated" with the iterations of new color science.

Don't get to caught up in value. Sure, purchase price or sell price might change, but that doesn't change the "value" of the camera in your hands and the images it creates.

David

That's all lovely, unless you operate on fine margins and need to be able to plan accordingly. for work and rentals. And if by the time from ordering to receiving the camera a whole new 'next big thing' version has been announced and released that can really put the kibosh on a lot of people trying to earn with a Red who aren't working on higher tiers of production.

Nothing to do with what a camera is capable of, but rather marketplace perception.

 

[M.Halsell]

Tax depreciation, it is what it is. Business owners have the opportunity to write down equipment expenses over a 5-7 year period. Reiterating Mr. Battistella, value and depreciation are 2 different material concepts. The camera purchase R1, R1MX or any subsequent model was purchased on the premise ownership would increased production value, which should equate better billings, more or sustained client work. Now if the camera and its owner has not gotten a happy return (ROI) on the investment, that generally boils down to a poor business acumen or poor investment decision. But each camera model has generally been able to hold it own in the money earning department.

Regarding RED introducing new models. The whole point of marketing consumer or business goods is to maintain strong demand. That demands generally works favorably in the marketplace as RED is generally a known entity in the mage capture business. If you say you have a RED, rarely is a blank stare as if to say 'what is a RED'? RED has succeeded in creating a good demand for its image acquisition. Images speak for themselves.

The matter of RED announcing a camera that has a long gestation period from announcement to end user. Is a bit sour. But the defeat algorithm is to concentrate on your money grip. Therefore when a RED camera announcement comes around that is not a marginal upgrade, a must have in your competitive world, you will be in a position to jump line for the premium model and it resets your upgrade position as well.

 

[Tim Morris]

@ leroy......22 for a epic weapon. wow

 

[konrad grant]

It all depends. Paying 20-23k for a great package from a RELIABLE seller who is determined to be honest, may be much more attractive than some random guy who says he has a cheap red for sale.

Can't speak about Arri camera values, however I'm pretty sure they dont Have a trade in program established like red does. Also, I've always thought it was very thoughtful of RED not to lower prices on cameras when they announce/deliver new ones. Their Cameras remain the same price until they are no longer available.

At the moment MANY have taken advantage of the AMAZING deals on new DSMC2 camera bodies, as a result their may not be as many buyers looking right now.

Long story short, your camera still holds value. As it is the brain is worth $15k to RED if you decide to trade up to EPIC-W

reds upgrade program is just marketing .. my head goes in my hands when I hear people talk like this .. yep, I get it.. you love red ..

its amazing ,, for just the cost of a brand new camera , they'll take your old camera , and give you a new one .. um ..

the re-certification program is useful though, to make sure you're buying good, ..er.. goods..

on the 23rd the new owner of my camera package will collect it (I have his money already .. ha ha)

but what did it sell for ? (obfuscated answer below)

the package:
epic-x dragon brain
pro I/O + module adapter
5inch touch
bomb EVF (OLED)
PLmount
Nikon Mount
Optitek Mount
Motion Mount (PL)
base plate and 4x rods
ronford F4 + tall + short legs + spreaders
Peli Case
Redmote
zeiss ZF 18,28,35,50,100mm lenses
1x256 gig card + 2 x 64gig card + reader
3 x global media pro batteries + chargers

B=17
C=49
A=15
£ (C-B)-A k

 

[Sean Alessi]

Red getting rid of the weapon magnesium was so lame, one of reds biggest selling points has been physical sensor size thats why I'm going with a epic dragon. Super 35 is just not a realistic starting sensor size for anything beyond shooting interviews on a tv set with 5 ad's and 3 hrs to setup each shot. If you need to get any sort of wide angle shot with a helium sensor there is no option beyond shooting exclusively in 8k which is unrealistic, especially for run and gun operations in the actions sports world. Beyond that 3/4 of all reds are shooting on canon L glass or worse why would anyone want to waste the money on the new hot sensor and half ass its operation. so I'm stoked on the new dsmc market price lets people who will run them right get 6k dragons for cheep.

 

[Ben Scott]

Tax depreciation, it is what it is. Business owners have the opportunity to write down equipment expenses over a 5-7 year period. Reiterating Mr. Battistella, value and depreciation are 2 different material concepts. The camera purchase R1, R1MX or any subsequent model was purchased on the premise ownership would increased production value, which should equate better billings, more or sustained client work. Now if the camera and its owner has not gotten a happy return (ROI) on the investment, that generally boils down to a poor business acumen or poor investment decision. But each camera model has generally been able to hold it own in the money earning department.

Regarding RED introducing new models. The whole point of marketing consumer or business goods is to maintain strong demand. That demands generally works favorably in the marketplace as RED is generally a known entity in the mage capture business. If you say you have a RED, rarely is a blank stare as if to say 'what is a RED'? RED has succeeded in creating a good demand for its image acquisition. Images speak for themselves.

The matter of RED announcing a camera that has a long gestation period from announcement to end user. Is a bit sour. But the defeat algorithm is to concentrate on your money grip. Therefore when a RED camera announcement comes around that is not a marginal upgrade, a must have in your competitive world, you will be in a position to jump line for the premium model and it resets your upgrade position as well.

Again all fine unless you are operating at the margins. I got massively burned financially the last time I was a Red owner and it's only now a few years later I'm able to get back into that game I've put a pre-order down with a very different business model where the Red won't be my primary 'earner' camera.

 

[Chuck Greenwood]

Leroy helped me get in the game with a used Scarlet now I can get cheap Epics used and shoot movies with them, it's a dream come true...thx man won't forget that, got you covered in Oregon. The pipeline has some adavantages just not at the front end as much lol. I can wait for the Raven with all the Epics available not a problem these are the good times...

 

[Robert Berger]

Whats the real reason the DSMC bodies have depreciated so much? I mean I seen a package for 14K O.B.O.
I know Tech is constantly on the move but I see Arri cameras holding there value far FAR longer than Red.
I had mines up for 23K and when I seen how low the prices where I decided not to even bump the thread be
cause there going for so so cheap. And heck I thought I had a pretty good package. SMH. Lesson learned I guess.
Nice camera though.

You can buy a Alexa for 10k secondhand.... more expensive than a drago...

 

[Scot Yount]

I hear ya man. I'm sticking with my Dragon. I seen a Epic-W body for 22K O.B.O that's already 7k off of the new price lol.

Actually, not if they bought it new with the discount like I did for $19,995. They are looking to make money, not lose it.

 

[Ketch Rossi]

It's all about the amount of Cameras available for sale, and the sellers willing to undercut each other's best price in order to sale first, and this causes a chain reaction which ends up making the prices on the used market value go lower and lower as more cameras come up for sale...

The biggest issue with RED cameras depreciation is the "Sellers"...

Other then that, all Electronics as new ones come out get a slash on price, the DSLR market has not been any different and neither has been the Medium Format market.

As for Arri, can't really make a comparison here, as RED cameras outnumber Arri camera sales by a huge margin, hence creating a much bigger Used market which in turn do to the chain reaction of one wishing to post a price just a bit lower then the previous seller, ending up with a drastic Depreciation of the gear in the long run...

 

[Ben Scott]

Ultimately this has all been exacerbated by the move from DSMC1 to DSMC2 and so people looking for fast sales to not get stuck with legacy gear. It will calm down a bit. When I sold my Scarlet-MX in 2014 I still got £12,000 for it including some extras. You just need to time it right and sell when everyone else is selling.

 

[darren scott]

It's pretty simple to me... If your current camera hasn't made back what you paid for it and hasnt been making you profit you have no business upgrading. I don't go into a camera purchase thinking how much I can sell it for... I'm thinking how much this cam can make me. Hopefully you have skills to back up the camera also.

 

[Kazu Okuda]

i dont get it when people say arri doesn't release cameras often. There's actually been like 10 Alexas since 2010. Thats averaging 2 per year because the mini came out last spring. There was also like D-20, D-21 and stuff. we just dont hear about owner/ops complain as much because most of them has been rental house owned. And they decreciate A LOT. I can rent a Alexa plus 4:3 dirt cheap nowadays. Also there's paid licensing and recording modules.

 

[Karim D. Ghantous]

The Arri mini which was released in what May 2015 and it still commands dang near what it cost new lol USED.

What kind of an idiot would buy a used camera for almost the new price? Even the best cars depreciate by a lot as soon as they are driven off the dealer's lot. The whole point of buying secondhand is precisely to get a big discount.

Some people criticize Sony for releasing new stills cameras often. But that's the bargain you strike when going digital. You can't force digital cameras to be like film cameras. Some people want it both ways but they have to slap themselves and wake up. By the time Arri gives the market a 4K Alexa, goodness knows what RED will be making. Even now, RED is showing no signs of letting up.

 

[Ben Scott]

But if Red move farther away from what Producers want then what matter how far they push resolution etc? Alexa Minis maintain a high price used because there is such a demand for them and there's not too many about. Epics and Dragons depreciate because there has been a firesale of them to move onto the new architecture and have the perceived improvements.


This is why IPP2 is (hopefully) is going to be such a great advance, especially in-camera. If there is a fast, foolproof system for producers and post-production people to get excellent images without having to significantly alter their workflow at their end or add additional stages which take time and money then they would go for it a lot more. In my experience freelance editors are the slowest group of people to adapt to new processes/tools/codecs/working practices but at the same time if there is an issue it will always be the DP or the camera getting blamed because they are not there to defend themselves.

Having the camera clamp out of gamut signals and remap them so they are visually pleasing is an instant crowdpleaser and one that makes everyone in the chain's life easier.

 

[Scot Yount]

It's pretty simple to me... If your current camera hasn't made back what you paid for it and hasnt been making you profit you have no business upgrading. I don't go into a camera purchase thinking how much I can sell it for... I'm thinking how much this cam can make me. Hopefully you have skills to back up the camera also.

This sums it up.