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RED CODE RAW - Native support in NLE

Yuval Shrem

Yuval Shrem

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At NAB 2007 we were told at the RED booth that RED CODE RAW will be natively supported in Final Cut Studio, and even though Final Cut only supports 2k resolutions it is able to render the final movie in the original 4k resolution.

My questions are:

1) Will RED CODE RAW be also natively supported in the Adobe Studio Suit?
2) If so, Will it work similarly with the 4k render-out of the final movie.
3) How much of render times are we expected to be experiencing and what could be done in real-time?

Thanks in advance,

Yuval
 
a very important question, anyone please?

will this only work through quicktime through premiere? how about cineform? do we have to transcode anything, or can we edit the redcode raw?
 
can someone please respond to this, not everyone wants to go the apple route,
is a fast pc running premiere doable, yes i know that any quictime capable app will do, but, is their a major disadvantage not going the final cut route?

thanks in advance
 
I believe that the Red team has stated that it will work as a Quicktime codec... so NLEs that accept Quicktimes can work with the footage.

It should be real-time on the NLE as long as it can be decoded in real-time.

So my post and Rob's reply in this thread:
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2452

Question for the Red team:
Sorry if I haven't been following super closely, but will other NLEs like Vegas be able to edit Redcode RAW without transcoding? Via the quicktime reference file.

2b- Isn't Vegas already real-time 'enabled' so you get comparable real-time to FCP? (As long as your computer can decode AND have enough horsepower to do the effect. And ignoring the RAW processing controls within FCP.)
Click to expand...

Glenn: should be yes to both. Obviously Vegas is 8-bit with a max of 2K.
Click to expand...
 
killfilm said:
cineform, i hope
Click to expand...

Cineform would not be a "native" support for RED-CODE RAW.
It will require file conversion and transcoding...
I'm not sure why you're hoping to need that.

There is a good chance that Cineform will excel in real-time performance when compared to RED-CODE RAW, but we don;t know that yet, and if there won;t be much of a difference, than there's a major advantege to not having to trascode/ convert files before working with them.
Don't you think?
 
PC side is all what I think and ask, Yuval. BTW, I hope all is fine with you!
 
Well, now that Adobe is cross-platform, what I care about it Adobe - no matter PC or MAC. It's the work-flow that I'm after.
There's AVID for PC, but I wouldn't even consider that option.
I was debating FCS2 vs. Adobe CS3, and assuming that CS3 will enjoy native support for Red-Code-RAW, I strongly prefer the Adobe packege, however, I'm still waiting to hear back regarding the differences of native codec support between the two.

CAN WE PLEASE GET A STRAIGHT ANSWER ABOUT THIS?

Thanks,
Yuval
 
Yuval... easy on the caps lock there. ;)

Native editing should be possible in Premiere (it reads quicktime files right?). The Redcode RAW files will have a reference file that's associated with it (or you can generate em with Redquick). The reference file will let you get a 2k/1k/0.5k extraction of the material.

Both NLEs should be able to edit the Redcode RAW footage without transcoding.

2- Where FCS and other NLEs will be different is that Final Cut Pro will have some integration with the image processing features of Redcode RAW. I believe Red stated that you can change the white balance, exposure, etc. of the RAW clips from within FCP.

This feature will ship later presumably.

Otherwise you would do such things in Redcine.
 
GlennChan said:
Yuval... easy on the caps lock there. ;)

Native editing should be possible in Premiere (it reads quicktime files right?). The Redcode RAW files will have a reference file that's associated with it (or you can generate em with Redquick). The reference file will let you get a 2k/1k/0.5k extraction of the material.

Both NLEs should be able to edit the Redcode RAW footage without transcoding.

2- Where FCS and other NLEs will be different is that Final Cut Pro will have some integration with the image processing features of Redcode RAW. I believe Red stated that you can change the white balance, exposure, etc. of the RAW clips from within FCP.

This feature will ship later presumably.

Otherwise you would do such things in Redcine.
Click to expand...


Thanks So much!

(sorry for the caps lock, but the question had been asked several times and had been nearly ignored for a while now. Your answer is the first clear answer I got.)

This brings up another question:

How do we manipulate the color-correction and exposure on the RAW level until the said integration becomes available?
 
You would do that in Redcine.

My guess is...
Offline Edit. Get picture lock.
Export EDL to Redcine.
You set Redcine to show only clips that you use (it can figure this out from the EDL).
You can manipulate the image processing on those clips.
Output to a high-quality format for online+conform.

Whereas with the integration, you don't need to go into Redcine to muck around.
 
GlennChan said:
You would do that in Redcine.

My guess is...
Offline Edit. Get picture lock.
Export EDL to Redcine.
You set Redcine to show only clips that you use (it can figure this out from the EDL).
You can manipulate the image processing on those clips.
Output to a high-quality format for online+conform.

Whereas with the integration, you don't need to go into Redcine to muck around.
Click to expand...

Thanks GlennChan,
and though you might be completely right, in this particular case I'm hoping you're wrong...

The concept of Off-line editing is exactly what I'm trying to avoid!
If I need to render and conform and export and import and convert etc. that ultimately defeats the purpose of native support, especially when combined with the renderless online workflow of Adobe CS3.

However, you do say it is only your guess, so i suppose there's still hope!

Maybe there will be a way to create and save various CC profiles in Redcine, and then recall them in an Adobe project? As long as they can be edited and updated while both programs are active, it would be just like having native access to Redcine in Premier or AE. In other words, as long as it doesn't require import/export rendering and non-real-time treascoding it should be fine, though it would be obviously nice if it could be done within the various Adobe programs...

Are there any official answers to these questions? Answers from people who have tangible information and know how it is going to work with Adobe CS3 vs. FCS2 and so they don't have to guess?

Please, let us know!

Thanks,
Yuval
 
Yuval Shrem said:
... The concept of Off-line editing is exactly what I'm trying to avoid!...
Click to expand...

Yuval - your passion for Adobe products makes them happy, I'm sure.:sarcasm:

And I certainly understand the desire to avoid unnecessary workflow steps. In your case, I'm guessing you're a one-man operation, so the distinction between "Offline" and "Finishing" is arbitrary.

But for this discussion to make sense - what is your final deliverable? Is it HD? 2K? 4K? If it's 4K, then I'm curious what your distribution venue is, and where the 4K is going to go?

Yuval Shrem said:
Are there any official answers to these questions? Answers from people who have tangible information and know how it is going to work with Adobe CS3 vs. FCS2 and so they don't have to guess?
Click to expand...

I can't give you an official answer - I don't work for RED. But RED has been very vocal and open about who their partners are and who they are working with to try and create workflows. Look at this page...
http://www.red.com/gear_we_use. That, combined with the fact that nobody from RED has mentioned Adobe in the context of native support, and I think that's a pretty good hint.

You could always go pound on Adobe's door and ask them to implement native Quicktime support for Premiere. They have really good forums at http://www.adobe.com/support/forums/

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA
 
luki said:
Yuval - your passion for Adobe products makes them happy, I'm sure.:sarcasm:

And I certainly understand the desire to avoid unnecessary workflow steps. In your case, I'm guessing you're a one-man operation, so the distinction between "Offline" and "Finishing" is arbitrary..
Click to expand...

Actually the main reason I prefer the render-free workflow is the way it simplify remote collaboration. Everybody uses the same sorce material, witout the need to send and transfer huge media files but rather only the small project files. This way I can always also tweak elements that I've recieved from somebody else colaburating on the project.

"Offline" and "Finishing" do seem arbitrary to me when Desktop finishing is now technically completely possible.

luki said:
But for this discussion to make sense - what is your final deliverable? Is it HD? 2K? 4K? If it's 4K, then I'm curious what your distribution venue is, and where the 4K is going to go?.
Click to expand...

It varies. Depending on the project. Anything from standard definition, High-definition, and all the way to film-out from a 4k master.


luki said:
I can't give you an official answer - I don't work for RED.
Click to expand...

True. That's exactly why I addressed this question to the people who do work for RED (or Adobe for that matter).

Just for the record, I've almost made the switch to FCS2 and changed my mind the last minute, after seing what looks to me as a less than perfect workflow presented there compared to the one offered by CS3.
I'm not biased. I've switched to render-free audio editing software years ago (from Soundforge to Wavelab) and could never go back. Wavelab (Audio editing and mastering software by Steinberg) has enabled me to colaburate with several editors arround the world very quickly and easily, using marker based editing sending only a reference mp3 and recieveing back via email the marker-files that are very small, without even ever sending the full media files, and then applying the marker files onto the original media.
Which did not required them to send back any edited media.

When I send a project to color-correction I'd like to still be able to tweak it afterwards. Of course, sometimes there are smaller quicker projects that do feel more like a one-man deal, and in those cases it can obviously save me a lot of the frustration of having to render all the time.

After realizing the need to render cc'd clips from "Color" before they can be used in FCP, and after realizing how inaccurate "Motion" is for serious compositing, I've made up my mind that if Adobe will support the RED-CODE RAW, they will be my choice.
 
Yuval Shrem said:
...
There's AVID for PC, but I wouldn't even consider that option.
Click to expand...

Why is that?

I am a computer geek, not a movie professional, so I just want to know your reasons. Personally I am not terribly impressed by any of the editing software I have tried. I find Avid to be cumbersome but relatively powerful, but that is probably because I'm low on the learning curve.
 
Why can't you combine FCP and AE then ? That's where Automatic Duck is for, bringing your stuff into AE from FCP.

I wouldn't even consider using Premiere for editing. I like AE, Photoshop and Encore. But i don't find myself need to buy complete CS3 set.
 
Rivai said:
Why can't you combine FCP and AE then ? That's where Automatic Duck is for, bringing your stuff into AE from FCP.

I wouldn't even consider using Premiere for editing. I like AE, Photoshop and Encore. But i don't find myself need to buy complete CS3 set.
Click to expand...

Well, in case no one else has told you this, Encore is part of Premiere now, they don't sell them separately anymore. So if you want Encore, you will have to get a copy of Premiere. You can let that sit on the shelf if you will, but it seams like someone that is talented can produce results on any NLE. I understand your wanting to use FCP, it has a lot of nice features. I really like that in Premiere, I can take stuff into AE, then back to premiere without rendering. When Automatic Duck can do that, I'll be more open to FCP.
 
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