Red Cine-X Pro in the IPP2 world

[Jim Skinner]

See some phenomenal results (from Scarlet W) in Premiere with the new IPP2 LUTs, here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6ve46AG2M8

How did I get this pipeline working? With help from the great Red community! Below is the original thread that includes all the tips and tricks

=======================ORIGNAL QUESTION=========================

Very excited to upgrade my ScarletW to firmware 7.0, even though it can’t film in IPP2 space, at least I can benefit from the new color pipeline in Red Cine-X Pro during color correction, right? So far I can’t tell any difference in my R3D trim files, so I am hoping this thread can provide guidance to everyone in the same boat as myself. So my questions to the experts are:

1) How do you even output an R3D file with a baked in look anymore? Premiere used to take the R3D trim files from Red Cine-X Pro with all my color tweaks, but no more. Did Premiere used to be able to read the settings in the RMD file? Is this because of RMD changes? Or did the R3D trim files produced by Red Cine-X Pro previously have color tweaks baked into them (when a new copy was produced with export)?

2) If I actually re-encode the R3D clips into ProRes on export then of course the result has the look baked in, but using that path forces other painful choices (like, do I want to convert to Rec709 color space). I would like to avoid the encode time, and the Rec709 decision, in my production pipeline at this point. I just want to get the best “master” file into Premiere, with a rough color grade performed in Red Cine-X Pro.

Is there some way to get the great look I am seeing in Red Cine X Pro into Premiere, maintaining as large a color space as possible? The new controls in Red Cine-X Pro are great (love the new contrast setting and highlight fall off setting). But how do I get that great look out of the RMD file and into R3D trim itself. What advice do you have for folks like me trying to use the IPP2 features in Red Cine-X Pro (with older Dragon sensor footage) with a lower end tool like Premiere?

 

[Aaron Lochert]

The IPP2 SDK just released the other day, so it'll still be a bit before the full implementation of IPP2 is integrated into 3rd party programs, including the new demosaic, the highlight extension algorithm, CDL controls, as well as the contrast/highlight curves.

However, Premiere and Resolve support REDWideGamutRGB and Log3G10 which is what IPP2 is based on. So for now, go with the LUT method.

IPP2 output presets: https://www.red.com/downloads/58de98eff77f300ebe00053f

Two options:

1. Use REDCINE-X and export ProRes with your "Export Pipeline" set to "Primary Raw Development," which will export your clips in RWG/Log3G10, with the white balance, ISO setting you chose locked, but will ignore everything else. Bring this footage into Premiere and use one of these LUTs to choose your output color space and gamma as well as your contrast settings and highlight softness. This LUT should come last in your effects chain--all grading should go prior to this LUT.

2. Work natively with the R3D file in Premiere, and set the clip's color space/gamma settings to REDWideGamutRGB/Log3G10 before putting one of these LUTs on. Again, all grading should come prior to this LUT.

The benefit to exporting from RCX being that you'll also utilize the new demosaic algorithm as well as the new highlight retention algorithm. The downside being storage space, time invested in creating these intermediate ProRes files, and also locking in your white balance and ISO, should you want to change them later.

Edit: Fixed some things.

 

[Jim Skinner]

Great advice!

Great advice!

Thank you very much Aaron! When I do the convert to ProRes in RCX should I choose the Rec2020 color space? It’s the widest color space available from the options, so even if I end up outputting the Premiere project as Rec709, having my “master” source file as Rec2020 should give me more choices, correct? I am hoping that logic is sound. Any and all advice is greatly appreciated!

 

[Graeme Nattress]

To accurately achieve your step 1 above there's an export setting for "Primary Raw Development" that will always export a pure unadulterated RWG/Log3G10.

For external grading doing the Primary Raw Development is your best option. Only transform to a monitor colour space at the end of your pipeline.

Graeme

 

[Aaron Lochert]

Primary Raw Development is what I usually do since I wait until I'm in Resolve to do my grading. I was under the impression that Jim was doing some CDL and other adjustments within RCX that he wanted to come along for the ride. Primary Raw Development bypasses these adjustments, correct?

Jim, the LUTs are designed to for RWG/Log3G10 material, if you choose anything but these, the output won't be right.

 

[Jim Skinner]

To accurately achieve your step 1 above there's an export setting for "Primary Raw Development" that will always export a pure unadulterated RWG/Log3G10.

For external grading doing the Primary Raw Development is your best option. Only transform to a monitor colour space at the end of your pipeline.

Graeme

I found that taking footage from my Scarlet W, not captured as Log3G10, once opened in RCX, is incorrectly cast to Log3G10. RCX seems to cast everything to Log3G10 now. And then after the RWG/Log3G10 “raw” export is complete, and then after that “raw” export file is loaded up to Premiere and the IPP2 Lut is applied, I get a weird bright neon sort of image. It’s like content that was not really stored in log format had a log curve applied to it.

When I apply that same look in RCX (high contrast, slow highlight roll off) and then transcode to ProRes, no problem. But when I try to export a “raw” file and apply the cube file it really really doesn’t work. {NOTE: THIS WAS DUE TO NOT CHANGING THE INCORRECT, DEFAULT COLORSPACE THAT PREMIERE APPLIES}

I was hoping the IPP2 goodness would apply to my non-Helium source material, but the IPP2 cube seems to expect a log range that my little Scarlet W is simply not producing. Maybe I need to record in Log3G10?

In previous releases RCX worked with all the gamuts, but it seems now if you want to export it only deals correctly with Log3G10?

 

[Aaron Lochert]

I found that taking footage from my Scarlet W, not captured as Log3G10, once opened in RCX, is incorrectly cast to Log3G10. RCX seems to cast everything to Log3G10 now.

IPP2, which is founded on REDWideGamutRGB/Log3G10, replaces the other color spaces and gammas. So "incorrectly" is not really incorrect if you're looking to utilize IPP2. Otherwise, you're looking for legacy mode. In EDIT > PREFERENCES > IMAGE PIPELINE, you can switch the "file browser clips" setting to "Show Legacy Controls." This will bring back everything you're familiar about DragonColor, etc. However, you won't have anything related to IPP2, because, again, this is all based off of RWG/Log3G10 now.

And then after the RWG/Log3G10 “raw” export is complete, and then after that “raw” export file is loaded up to Premiere and the IPP2 Lut is applied, I get a weird bright neon sort of image. It’s like content that was not really stored in log format had a log curve applied to it.

Can you supply a r3d snapshot so I can see what is happening? Weird neon image sounds wrong.

I was hoping the IPP2 goodness would apply to my non-Helium source material, but the IPP2 cube seems to expect a log range that my little Scarlet W is simply not producing. Maybe I need to record in Log3G10?

It absolutely should work. I've been playing around with old footage shot with Mysterium-X stuff just last week. "Recording in Log3g10" isn't a thing. You're recording raw. When the raw is processed in post, only then do you get to pick your color space/gamma. So there's nothing that needs to be done at the time of capture.

When you go to export, are you switching the "Export Pipeline" setting to "Primary Raw Development" as Graeme has said? This should export the file in RWG/Log3G10 and absolutely will accept the LUT.

 

[Jim Skinner]

Thank you Aaron for more great advice!

Thank you Aaron for more great advice!

I am glad to know I can always go back to legacy and then see what the old pipeline would have done. But now that I have seen the impact of the contrast and highlight controls, I can never go back. It’s like seeing pizza for the first time.

I have been testing RCX with both MX and W footage, and I will post the R3Ds in the morning. I would love to use the workflow where Premiere applies the cube to a truly raw file to get the correct look. It looks like the cube (the version 1.13 beta from Sept) goes too far though (when used in Premiere). Colors are too saturated, highlights are way too high. And Premiere Lumetri is too weak to tune the footage the way I want when the starting point is so wrong. I do get a great look when I color time in RCX directly and bake in the look. Colors are perfect, vibrant. It’s just the one way ticket to ProRes encoding (for RCX output) that I don’t want to buy.

I do much prefer RCX for color timing over Premier’s Lumetri

 

[Graeme Nattress]

Jim, if you can post some screen-captures showing your process, how things look in RC-X, your export settings, how things look in Premiere before you apply the LUT and after, we can probably figure where something is going wrong. It sounds like the output transform is getting applied twice, but hard to tell long distance.

Graeme

 

[Jim Skinner]

Jim, if you can post some screen-captures showing your process, how things look in RC-X, your export settings, how things look in Premiere before you apply the LUT and after, we can probably figure where something is going wrong. It sounds like the output transform is getting applied twice, but hard to tell long distance.

Graeme

Thank you for your help Graeme. I've learned so much from your posts on this site in the last few years, I am sure you can set me on the right path.

Here is a YouTube clip of 1) the MX footage, run through RCX and output as ProRes (look baked in, and looks great) 2) the W footage, run through RCX and out to ProRes (look baked in and looks even better) 3) the raw footage with the IPP2 cube file applied in Premier (seems blown out, adjusting Lumetri settings couldn't save it) and 4) the raw footage in Premier with nothing applied (basically just removed the LUT so you can see what the raw looks like).

https://youtu.be/jIR-XRPwS9o

I will post a link to the raw file itself next. THANKS for your support!

 

[Jim Skinner]

And here is the raw file that was output by RCX when I selected raw output

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B2OBi8yLo9YJQXQ5cEU0cjBraDQ

File is 1.28 GB in size

 

[Graeme Nattress]

So just looking at the Premiere output that goes super bright, my guess is that the Premiere decode of the R3D is NOT set to RWG/Log3G10. If you can check that aspect while I wait for your file to download.

Graeme

 

[Aaron Lochert]

Jim, the LUTs are designed to for RWG/Log3G10 material, if you choose anything but these, the output won't be right.

I can't stress this enough.

When you bring a clip into premiere, go to the "Effects Controls" tab, and then the Master tab within that tab, and make sure your clip's color space and gamma curve is set to REDWideGamutRGB and Log3G10.

I just did the same and this is what I see:

My guess is it was set to DragonColor2 and RedGamma4 and you were putting the LUT on top of that.

 

[Jim Skinner]

I can't stress this enough.

When you bring a clip into premiere, go to the "Effects Controls" tab, and then the Master tab within that tab, and make sure your clip's color space and gamma curve is set to REDWideGamutRGB and Log3G10.

I just did the same and this is what I see:

My guess is it was set to DragonColor2 and RedGamma4 and you were putting the LUT on top of that.

Yes!!! There is the step I was missing. Thank you so much.

So to wrap up the thread for Premiere users:

You don't need to use RCX. It is an AWESOME tool, but you can get a very similar look in Premiere with the various LUTs that Red supplies.

To do this you need to add the IPP2 cube files (from Red.com) ver 1.13 beta to your Lumetri directory (sub directory called Technical). This will allow you to see the choice in the LUT drop down menu

Next import your camera original into Premiere.

Next in Premiere in Effects Control, click on the tab to the left called "Master {clipname}" and set your color space to REDWideGamutRGB and Log3G10. You can also correct ISO here.

Now choose the IPP2 flavor you want from the LUT drop down menu. Heaven!

 

[Edry Hilario]

for native editing in premiere pro, is the re exporting from raw to raw through RCX necessary? I've seen videos around the web and they seem to take non helium based raw files straight from camera, select REDWideGamutRGB, Log3G10 and apply the lut and call it a day, or is this a bad practice? are you not getting the full benefits of ipp2 when you skip the raw to raw conversion?

 

[Jim Skinner]

for native editing in premiere pro, is the re exporting from raw to raw through RCX necessary? I've seen videos around the web and they seem to take non helium based raw files straight from camera, select REDWideGamutRGB, Log3G10 and apply the lut and call it a day, or is this a bad practice? are you not getting the full benefits of ipp2 when you skip the raw to raw conversion?

There is definitely a difference between R3D out of camera, and R3D trim, produced by RCX. I hope the folks that work with the format can explain it better, but I can confirm that I tried to simply open my camera originals in Premiere, and the UX could not even update the timeline. Playback worked to a degree, but the Premiere UX was basically out to lunch. Running the same R3D through RCX (outputting as raw R3D trim) produced a file that Premier had no problem with, no lag in the UX, worked much better.

It has been this way for years, by the way. I have always had much better luck with the RCX produced R3D trim file. Hopefully someone can explain what the difference is.

{NOTE, THIS ISSUE ONLY SEEMS TO APPEAR ON LOWER POWERED PCs, USING AN AMD PROCESSOR. THIS DOES NOT OCCUR ON MY PRIMARY EDITING MACHINE}

 

[Aaron Lochert]

for native editing in premiere pro, is the re exporting from raw to raw through RCX necessary? I've seen videos around the web and they seem to take non helium based raw files straight from camera, select REDWideGamutRGB, Log3G10 and apply the lut and call it a day, or is this a bad practice? are you not getting the full benefits of ipp2 when you skip the raw to raw conversion?

You can definitely do that. I'm currently editing a 3 hour long project of Helium material natively without r3d trims.

But by keeping it in r3d format, you're skipping the new demosaic (be sure to view 100%) and the new highlight extension algorithm when you do this. Once IPP2 is fully implemented into Premiere and Resolve, you'll get the full benefit.

That said, if you're good at protecting your highlights you won't need highlight recovery. And if your lenses are sharp enough or you're oversampling enough for your project's delivery resolution, you can probably skip if if you want to work with the r3ds natively in Premiere/Resolve. That's why I'm working with my r3d's natively right now = no clipped highlights and we're delivering 1080p.

If you want to utilize all this, it's best to render out ProRes or something from RCX to lock in that demosaic and highlight extension.

As for the benefits of r3d trims vs camera originals... I don't think I've ever seen the benefits but maybe my computer is overpowered enough that it makes no difference for me.

 

[Rob Lohman]

There is definitely a difference between R3D out of camera, and R3D trim, produced by RCX. I hope the folks that work with the format can explain it better, but I can confirm that I tried to simply open my camera originals in Premiere, and the UX could not even update the timeline. Playback worked to a degree, but the Premiere UX was basically out to lunch. Running the same R3D through RCX (outputting as raw R3D trim) produced a file that Premier had no problem with, no lag in the UX, worked much better.

It has been this way for years, by the way. I have always had much better luck with the RCX produced R3D trim file. Hopefully someone can explain what the difference is.

Hi Jim,

Having written that code this makes no sense to me Would you be able to put up a source clip somewhere for me to download and try this out myself? (rob at red)

Thanks!

 

[Edry Hilario]

You can definitely do that. I'm currently editing a 3 hour long project of Helium material natively without r3d trims.

But by keeping it in r3d format, you're skipping the new demosaic (be sure to view 100%) and the new highlight extension algorithm when you do this. Once IPP2 is fully implemented into Premiere and Resolve, you'll get the full benefit.

That said, if you're good at protecting your highlights you won't need highlight recovery. And if your lenses are sharp enough or you're oversampling enough for your project's delivery resolution, you can probably skip if if you want to work with the r3ds natively in Premiere/Resolve. That's why I'm working with my r3d's natively right now = no clipped highlights and we're delivering 1080p.

If you want to utilize all this, it's best to render out ProRes or something from RCX to lock in that demosaic and highlight extension.

As for the benefits of r3d trims vs camera originals... I don't think I've ever seen the benefits but maybe my computer is overpowered enough that it makes no difference for me.

Ah gotcha, and thanks for explaning this! it makes a lot of sense now. Hopefully adobe will update premiere so it can take full advantage of ipp2.

 

[Jim Skinner]

Hi Jim,

Having written that code this makes no sense to me Would you be able to put up a source clip somewhere for me to download and try this out myself? (rob at red)

Thanks!

Hi Rob! I'm super excited to talk to one of the devs for RCX. RCX is literally my favorite color timing tool! I cannot believe it's free.

I tried to repro the "slow load" issue on my primary editing machine (an Intel processor) and I could not repro. This only occurs on a slow AMD-based PC.

One possibility is that when Premiere tries to pre-cache a clip (as it's scrolled through) it brings the UI to a halt on an AMD chip. I may just be seeing the cost of scrolling through the file for the first time.

Could you let me know if there are any material difference between camera original R3D and R3D trim? In previous Premiere versions I couldn't even read the original R3D file, I had to run the clips through RCX. Was there ever a difference? Is there no difference in the file types anymore?