Red Cine in PC Land

[number6]

Need some help here. I am going to get an Nvidia Quadro FX 370 to use on a DELL SC1430 server aka WORKSTATION! w/dual Xeon quad cores running Windows Vista Ultimate 64 bit.

My question is, can I also utilize the GPU in a PCI-X graphics card for rendering? That is, can REDcine or Adobe CS3 utilize both the PCI-e and PCI-X GPU's simultaneously?

 

[SalaTar]

RedCine Barfs on most ati's,
But then again so does Scratch.
RedCine is Scratch lite use NV

 

[Fredrik Harreschou]

Need some help here. I am going to get an Nvidia Quadro FX 370 to use on a DELL SC1430 server aka WORKSTATION! w/dual Xeon quad cores running Windows Vista Ultimate 64 bit.

My question is, can I also utilize the GPU in a PCI-X graphics card for rendering? That is, can REDcine or Adobe CS3 utilize both the PCI-e and PCI-X GPU's simultaneously?

AFAIK: No, unfortunately. Re Vista, any special reason for choosing this OS? XP is recommended for both RedCine and CS3 for the time being. If you need 64 bit, I'd recommend XP64. I guess Dell doesn't offer XP preinstalled anymore?

 

[Ales Baumgartner]

HI,
I have 2 Xeon Quad core processors and Nvidia Quadro 3450/4000 SDI and Vista 64bit.
RED CINE crash down every time I try to load the footage.
But another workstation with realy simple setup works well (WinXP32, AMD proc., Nvidia Geforce).
???

 

[Roger Singh]

Do any decent PCI-X cards exist? Also, I think the FX 370 is only based on the Geforce 8500 Chipset.

You're probably better off buying a used geforce 6800 (~$50) and softmod it with rivatuner and turn it into a Quadro FX4000. Works well with the AGP 6800GT i have on one of my older computers. Or even a used geforce 7900 PCIe card will run better than the FX370, and still be cheaper.

Also, if you going to buy the SC1430, and put your own OS on it, why not just build your own system and get parts from newegg? You'll probably save tons of money and you'll end up getting a better motherboard that'll have more than 1 PCIe slot.

You probably won't be better off using XP64 over Vista64, you'll most likely get the same software issues. I've used both, and Vista 64 is miles ahead of XP64. There seems to be more support for Vista64, and from my experience, the system seems to run smoother... There's no need to do out-of-ordinary tweaks to get the system working well. But, still has its issues with some software (like RedCine).

BUT, you should do a dual boot with XP32 for the next little while though. Make a 10gig partition, install XP32 on it, and then install Vista64 on the second partition. That'll keep you sane for a while. Just remember, XP32 can't see drives beyond 2TB.

I've also have zero issues with CS3 on Vista64... CS3 is a lot more 64bit friendly than CS2. Also remember, by default, CS2/3 will use up to 3.5gigs of ram on a 64bit system. As opposed to 2gigs on XP32.

Since we're talking about PCs, I'm just going to mention that the new Samsung Spinpint F Raid drives are being shipped... and they're the fastest sATA drives out there.

http://www.samsung.com/global/busin...up=&type=58&subtype=70&model_cd=233&ppmi=1162

http://www.samsung.com/global/busin...up=&type=58&subtype=70&model_cd=231&ppmi=1162

Topping out at over 120MB/s!! with 98MB/s Average. Not bad at all. Definitely worth waiting for you're looking to buy new drives.

They also just announced the 1.5TB version

HI,
I have 2 Xeon Quad core processors and Nvidia Quadro 3450/4000 SDI and Vista 64bit.
RED CINE crash down every time I try to load the footage.
But another workstation with realy simple setup works well (WinXP32, AMD proc., Nvidia Geforce).
???

it's definitely something to do with Nvidia 64bit drivers. On my Vista 64, i am not even able to click on anything. The program doesn't crash. When I move the mouse over the picture area, the bar on the top pops down. But, i just can't click anything. my vista x64 just has a regular geforce 7900GT on it.

 

[number6]

AFAIK: No, unfortunately. Re Vista, any special reason for choosing this OS? XP is recommended for both RedCine and CS3 for the time being. If you need 64 bit, I'd recommend XP64. I guess Dell doesn't offer XP preinstalled anymore?

Hi Fredrik, The only reason to go for the OEM Vista OS is future proofing. Actually the only pre-install offered by DELL was Windows Server or a Linux server build. Also, I read that the beta testers for Vista SP1 are giving good reviews to Vista now. Supposedly MicroSoft resolved a lot of previous issues.

 

[number6]

HI,
I have 2 Xeon Quad core processors and Nvidia Quadro 3450/4000 SDI and Vista 64bit.
RED CINE crash down every time I try to load the footage.
But another workstation with realy simple setup works well (WinXP32, AMD proc., Nvidia Geforce).
???

Hi alexb, Yeah, I think Graeme or Stuart or Rob... somebody on the RED team said that REDCINE was only optimized for Windows XP for now. Hopefully by the time I get my camera and get some actual footage recorded it will be tweaked to run with Vista.

 

[Fredrik Harreschou]

Hi Fredrik, The only reason to go for the OEM Vista OS is future proofing. Actually the only pre-install offered by DELL was Windows Server or a Linux server build. Also, I read that the beta testers for Vista SP1 are giving good reviews to Vista now. Supposedly MicroSoft resolved a lot of previous issues.

Vista will be THE windows platform for sure, but I think you are proofing your future more than the present.:biggrin: My feeling from hardware and software companies (and from own experience) is still: Wait with Vista if you can.

My philosophy on any platform is to use the most stable solutions, not the latest. In general (not directed to you) people are so eager to get on Vista or Leopard for the latest bells-and-whistles. I don't get that. I think its ok to have the latest stuff for your home entertainment system. But not with the tools you make your living with.

Cheers,
Fredrik

PS: Another thought is the fact that you will probably have to change things in your system over the course of some years or at least do clean installs from time to time - so your system won't be "future proof" anyways, you know. Next christmas could be a good time to go Vista, IMO. Then hopefully Adobe CS4 is out with 64bit support as well.

PPS: Unless you are concidering the price of the software as a big deal, get both and do as Roger says and have dual boot.

 

[number6]

Do any decent PCI-X cards exist? Also, I think the FX 370 is only based on the Geforce 8500 Chipset.

Good point. Actually it seems that most on offer on eBay are just PCI cards. But I don't need an especially great card... just one to help share the workload being shifted to the GPU by many applications. If you could get a cheap PCI card to put in an empty slot, it would be sort of like adding another processor to your unit for cheap.

You're probably better off buying a used geforce 6800 (~$50) and softmod it with rivatuner and turn it into a Quadro FX4000. Works well with the AGP 6800GT i have on one of my older computers. Or even a used geforce 7900 PCIe card will run better than the FX370, and still be cheaper.

Also, if you going to buy the SC1430, and put your own OS on it, why not just build your own system and get parts from newegg? You'll probably save tons of money and you'll end up getting a better motherboard that'll have more than 1 PCIe slot.

The reason I'm going with the FX370 is that it is optimized to run on Workstations. I read that the card manufacturers change something in their drivers so their mainstream cards won't run optimally on Workstation or Server type motherboards. The FX370 is the bottom of the line of the ones that will, and therefore is the least expensive. It still has Direct X 10, 4.0 shader, and Open GL 2.1 support. Really a pretty hot little card for RED work. One thing though, the 1430 only has a PCIe slot for x8 cards (the FX370 fits only a 16 lane slot) and it only runs at x4 speed. Can get around the 8 lane problem by using a riser adapter and removing a little blue do-hickey on the card hold-doun strip. But since I will only be getting 4 lanes, was hoping to add more GPU processing by adding another card. I have the FX370 saved in my cart on Newegg, but am hoping the price will drop before I actually need to order it.

You probably won't be better off using XP64 over Vista64, you'll most likely get the same software issues. I've used both, and Vista 64 is miles ahead of XP64. There seems to be more support for Vista64, and from my experience, the system seems to run smoother... There's no need to do out-of-ordinary tweaks to get the system working well. But, still has its issues with some software (like RedCine).

BUT, you should do a dual boot with XP32 for the next little while though. Make a 10gig partition, install XP32 on it, and then install Vista64 on the second partition. That'll keep you sane for a while. Just remember, XP32 can't see drives beyond 2TB.

I've also have zero issues with CS3 on Vista64... CS3 is a lot more 64bit friendly than CS2. Also remember, by default, CS2/3 will use up to 3.5gigs of ram on a 64bit system. As opposed to 2gigs on XP32.

Since we're talking about PCs, I'm just going to mention that the new Samsung Spinpint F Raid drives are being shipped... and they're the fastest sATA drives out there.

http://www.samsung.com/global/busin...up=&type=58&subtype=70&model_cd=233&ppmi=1162

http://www.samsung.com/global/busin...up=&type=58&subtype=70&model_cd=231&ppmi=1162

Topping out at over 120MB/s!! with 98MB/s Average. Not bad at all. Definitely worth waiting for you're looking to buy new drives.

They also just announced the 1.5TB version



it's definitely something to do with Nvidia 64bit drivers. On my Vista 64, i am not even able to click on anything. The program doesn't crash. When I move the mouse over the picture area, the bar on the top pops down. But, i just can't click anything. my vista x64 just has a regular geforce 7900GT on it.

Hey Roger, great information. Am especially glad to hear of the CS3 and Vista 64 bit compatibility. I had read somewhere that CS3, though not fully 64 bit ready, had some 64 bit code included. And with the Service Pack 1 being slated for the end of the year release, things should only get better.

As for drives, my unit shipped with a 320 (dual 160s) RAID 0 as my C: drive. They are Seagates and that is alright with me since I have used that brand with good results. But I will definitely check out the Samsung Spinpoints. (1.5 TBs already? Wow!!)

OBTW, on Toms Hardware Guide they did a review and it seems that RAM is less important than CPU cores when it comes to rendering. Still, with most of the applications using the GPU so much, it seems that money may be better spent on graphics than RAM. But don't quote me on that. Say someone else said it in case I'm wrong.:biggrin:

 

[number6]

PS: Another thought is the fact that you will probably have to change things in your system over the course of some years or at least do clean installs from time to time - so your system won't be "future proof" anyways, you know. Next christmas could be a good time to go Vista, IMO. Then hopefully Adobe CS4 is out with 64bit support as well.

PPS: Unless you are concidering the price of the software as a big deal, get both and do as Roger says and have dual boot.

Cannot disagree with any of your points. And my system is already outdated with the release of Penryn or Stoakly (Xeon platform) or whatever. But those will soon be overshadowed when Nehalem is released. Still, they will all be running Vista so that should give me some level of protection. And this unit I've just purchased (dual quad core Xeon system at half the cost of one Penryn Quad core CPU only:w00t: ) will be relegated to second unit when the newer processors systems become more affordable.

Guess you may have figured that to me, the cost of (extra) software is kind of a big deal, since I am cost conscious. I'm just thinking that the RED team will eventually get all bases covered, but will do so one base at a time. In my case, everything in re: CS3 and Vista compatibility with REDCINE should be in place when needed, so I can play the waiting game.

But for anyone in immediate need, I think you and Roger are probably both right in suggesting Windows XP since REDCINE is optimized for it at present.

 

[Paul Leeming]

To chime in on specs that work, here are mine (built it myself):

- Eizo S2411W 1920x1200 24" LCD Monitor
- Nvidia GeForce 8800GTX 768MB video card (Driver version 163.67)
- Intel Quad Core Q6600 2.4GHz overclocked to 3.2GHz
- ASUS P5B Deluxe motherboard overclocked 8x400MHz (gives 1600MHz FSB)
- 4GB PC6400 DDR2-RAM
- Windows XP SP2 Professional Edition (all updates to June 2007)
- 2TB worth of HDDs, none RAIDed at this time (but they will be soon)

This combo works fine with REDCINE, and I can output clips at a reasonable pace. I haven't played much with it yet so no benchmarks per se on different codecs etc.

HTH

Paul

 

[Lucas Wilson]

To chime in on specs that work, here are mine (built it myself):

- Eizo S2411W 1920x1200 24" LCD Monitor
- Nvidia GeForce 8800GTX 768MB video card (Driver version 163.67)
- Intel Quad Core Q6600 2.4GHz overclocked to 3.2GHz
- ASUS P5B Deluxe motherboard overclocked 8x400MHz (gives 1600MHz FSB)
- 4GB PC6400 DDR2-RAM
- Windows XP SP2 Professional Edition (all updates to June 2007)
- 2TB worth of HDDs, none RAIDed at this time (but they will be soon)

This combo works fine with REDCINE, and I can output clips at a reasonable pace. I haven't played much with it yet so no benchmarks per se on different codecs etc.

HTH

Paul

Nice setup, Paul... couple of questions:

1) How are you doing the overclocking, and do you need additional cooling?

2) I don't remember - is the GeForce a PCI-e or PCI-x card?

Lucas
------
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA

 

[Roger Singh]

Good point. Actually it seems that most on offer on eBay are just PCI cards. But I don't need an especially great card... just one to help share the workload being shifted to the GPU by many applications. If you could get a cheap PCI card to put in an empty slot, it would be sort of like adding another processor to your unit for cheap.

There aren't much of a selection of PCI cards out there anymore. There maybe a quadro PCI card, but I don't think there is. The fastest PCI card out there is probably a Geforce 6200 (maybe a 7300).

Also, I think you're a bit mistaken on what adding a second videocard will do for you. The only way for a program to take advantage of two videocards is through SLI or Crossfire. You need a SLI/Crossfire motherboard, along with two exact same videocards. That, and it's only used in games right now.

Adding a second videocard will just give you extra video outputs. RedCine will only take advantage of the videocard it's displaying on. As far as I know, RedCine/Scratch doesn't use any Direct3D functions. so I don't know if even having the latest videocard would be as beneficial as having a faster CPU.


The sure fire way to speed up rendering is doing a network render. A lot of CG programs do this, along with AE. You set up a network render on every computer in the network. And once you start rendering out, all the computers on the network will render along the main computer.

You have to work through shared folders though, for all the computers to see the same files, and it works really well with Image Sequence outputs. I guess if you were you were to output Shots within video containers (avi or mov) then the host can separate the shots for each computer.

I don't know if Scratch or RedCine supports this, I know Lustre does, they have some program called incinerator that lets you work with Clustered CPUS to speed up the program itself. But looking at the webpage, they seem to be connected with InfiniBand, which is miles faster than gigabit

http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/item?siteID=123112&id=9227944

I don't even want to know how much that system costs.

But that's for realtime work, Lustre has a network render program called Backburner, and I think that works with all the autodesk program. A feature like this would be very welcomed with Redcine/Scratch.

The reason I'm going with the FX370 is that it is optimized to run on Workstations. I read that the card manufacturers change something in their drivers so their mainstream cards won't run optimally on Workstation or Server type motherboards.

That's true to a point, it's really mainly for technical support if you have any issues, but you wouldn't have any problems with a regular card in there. I had a geforce 7900GTX in a dual opteron server board, and it had no problems.

As far as I know, the only real difference between quadro and Geforce is that nvidia put in some extra call functions into the drivers that lets Professional cad and 3D programs to take advantage of it. That and more driver stability testing.

That's too bad you don't have a x16 slot, if you know the FX370 will work, it should be fine for any film related software.

As for drives, my unit shipped with a 320 (dual 160s) RAID 0 as my C: drive. They are Seagates and that is alright with me since I have used that brand with good results. But I will definitely check out the Samsung Spinpoints. (1.5 TBs already? Wow!!)

Haha, you're going to have a tough time onlining a film with only 320gigs so yeah, you should keep the 1.5tb drives in mind

I am hearing that by 2011/12, we should have 4TB drives. Not bad at all.

OBTW, on Toms Hardware Guide they did a review and it seems that RAM is less important than CPU cores when it comes to rendering. Still, with most of the applications using the GPU so much, it seems that money may be better spent on graphics than RAM. But don't quote me on that. Say someone else said it in case I'm wrong.:biggrin:

Yeah, for rendering, RAM shouldn't be as important as raw CPU power. But I wouldn't ignore ram. having lots of ram is really great for Multitasking a bunch of Big programs at once. Also very useful for Ram Preview. I am not sure if RedCine has ram preview. But, After Effects does. That, and ram is so crazy cheap nowadays. 8gigs of DDR2 can be had for around $300. But, it'll be a little more pricey for you i think, since you'll need registered RAM.

Also, I personally don't know if RedCine takes advantage of the GPU when it comes to rendering. Still something that's probably more CPU intensive. As I mentioned before, Network Rendering is the best route to go for the fastest rendering.

 

[MikeHedge]

thanks for all the PC posting.... super interesting in building a new PC system with the new Intel chips...

It was pretty confusing this summer with all the Quad/Extreme/Dual/Xeon chips.... so I have waited...

 

[sceneeast]

For what it's worth:

I just had a system built below and RED CINE run beautifully on it.

Processor: Intel Core 2 Quad CPU Q6600 @ 2.40 HGz (4 Cores)
Bus Speed 1067 HZ

Board: Intel Desktop Board D975XBX2
Bios: BX97520J.86A.2792.2007.0905.1804
Bios Date: 9.5.2007

OS XP Professional 5.1.2600
Service Pack 2
Physical Memory 4MB
Memory Speed: 667 MHz
Memory Type: DDR2, Synchronous

Video Card: Diamond Radeon HD 2900 XT 512MB PCIe Video Card

Internal 1TB hard drive

With external Buffalo Technology TeraStation Pro II 4TB Netwrok Attached Storage

Bob

 

[David Groundwater]

overclocking

overclocking

To chime in on specs that work, here are mine (built it myself):

- Eizo S2411W 1920x1200 24" LCD Monitor
- Nvidia GeForce 8800GTX 768MB video card (Driver version 163.67)
- Intel Quad Core Q6600 2.4GHz overclocked to 3.2GHz
- ASUS P5B Deluxe motherboard overclocked 8x400MHz (gives 1600MHz FSB)
- 4GB PC6400 DDR2-RAM
- Windows XP SP2 Professional Edition (all updates to June 2007)
- 2TB worth of HDDs, none RAIDed at this time (but they will be soon)

This combo works fine with REDCINE, and I can output clips at a reasonable pace. I haven't played much with it yet so no benchmarks per se on different codecs etc.

HTH

Paul

hi there,
i've not managed to overclock nearly as much - did you increase your processor voltage in bios?

cheers,

david

 

[Paul Leeming]

I feel like I'm back in my old overclocking forums, posting screenshots of my latest scores etc

For Lucas, the Nvidia GeForce 8800GTX is a PCIe card running at its full x16 setting. I use the Zalman CNPS-9700NT CPU cooler to keep the overclocked CPU nice and stable, believe it or not with almost default voltage (see screencap below for full specs). I did put a Zalman NBF47 aftermarket northbridge cooler on the motherboard's chipset, but this is only because the motherboard is mounted upside down compared to the ATX spec and the included ASUS heatpipe assembly would have been wicking the hot liquid in the wrong direction. That's because I use a Lian Li PC-V1000, which has been designed with high cooling in mind by separating the heat sources and routing the airflow in logical directions for maximum effect.

The nice thing with my setup is that it is almost silent, yet achieves a 33% overclock over the standard spec in the CPU department and a 50% overclock in the motherboard's front side bus department, putting it at the cutting edge of today's fastest systems for significantly less money! Oh and I built this in February....

As for overclocking, there is an art to it and you need to know which components can be pushed safely and which can't. With the Core series of CPUs and P965 series motherboards they like to operate on whole multiples of 400 if you are using DDR2-800 RAM. In my BIOS I have set the CPU multiplier DOWN to 8x from its spec of 9x, but increased my front side bus to 400MHz from its default 266MHz, giving the 8x400 settings and a 3.2GHz clock speed on the CPU. I also set the CPU to idle at its 6x multiplier so it runs at 2.4GHz (stock) when not loaded. Voltages are best done by going step by step on one component until you have the minimum stable voltage. Remember, more voltage = more heat, so don't overdo it (and too much will fry your components!). At 400MHz FSB you need to bump the northbridge/southbridge voltages slightly but the ASUS P5B Deluxe is well capable of coping.

This kind of stuff is usually done not in the video editing world but in the gaming world, since the video editing world relies on stability over raw speed. Whilst this is absolutely a valid way to think, I come from background in building PCs so I have been doing this stuff for years and understand what works and what doesn't. The fastest system is not always the most reliable, so you need to find a balance. In my case, my CPU will actually run at 3.6GHz (9x multiplier set in BIOS) BUT it is hotter and very occasionally flakes out when worked hard (loading all four cores with the Prime95 torture test for example). So I back off and accept a "lowly" 3.2GHz in exchange for rock solid stability.

One other thing, if you push your FSB you will overclock your RAM as well, so that needs to be underclocked in its ratio. The nice thing with getting to 1600MHz FSB is that your DDR2-800 RAM can be used in a 1:1 ratio with the raw FSB which is quad clocked 4x400MHz. A 1:1 memory ratio in combination with a Core based Intel CPU gives you the best possible memory/CPU throughput.

Lastly, make sure you lock your PCI bus to 33MHz and your PCIe bus to 100MHz. HDDs especially don't like much deviation from those numbers and can corrupt your data if they exceed their tolerances.

So.... anyone still want to overclock?!

Here's a couple of pictures showing my system specs and its innards. Enjoy!

Cheers,

Paul

 

[number6]

Paul, it looks like if you could transfer some of that pouer to those wheels that thing would just drive off.:bye2:

 

[Blue]

I feel like I'm back in my old overclocking forums, posting screenshots of my latest scores etc

For Lucas, the Nvidia GeForce 8800GTX is a PCIe card running at its full x16 setting. I use the Zalman CNPS-9700NT CPU cooler to keep the overclocked CPU nice and stable, believe it or not with almost default voltage (see screencap below for full specs). I did put a Zalman NBF47 aftermarket northbridge cooler on the motherboard's chipset, but this is only because the motherboard is mounted upside down compared to the ATX spec and the included ASUS heatpipe assembly would have been wicking the hot liquid in the wrong direction. That's because I use a Lian Li PC-V1000, which has been designed with high cooling in mind by separating the heat sources and routing the airflow in logical directions for maximum effect.

The nice thing with my setup is that it is almost silent, yet achieves a 33% overclock over the standard spec in the CPU department and a 50% overclock in the motherboard's front side bus department, putting it at the cutting edge of today's fastest systems for significantly less money! Oh and I built this in February....

As for overclocking, there is an art to it and you need to know which components can be pushed safely and which can't. With the Core series of CPUs and P965 series motherboards they like to operate on whole multiples of 400 if you are using DDR2-800 RAM. In my BIOS I have set the CPU multiplier DOWN to 8x from its spec of 9x, but increased my front side bus to 400MHz from its default 266MHz, giving the 8x400 settings and a 3.2GHz clock speed on the CPU. I also set the CPU to idle at its 6x multiplier so it runs at 2.4GHz (stock) when not loaded. Voltages are best done by going step by step on one component until you have the minimum stable voltage. Remember, more voltage = more heat, so don't overdo it (and too much will fry your components!). At 400MHz FSB you need to bump the northbridge/southbridge voltages slightly but the ASUS P5B Deluxe is well capable of coping.

This kind of stuff is usually done not in the video editing world but in the gaming world, since the video editing world relies on stability over raw speed. Whilst this is absolutely a valid way to think, I come from background in building PCs so I have been doing this stuff for years and understand what works and what doesn't. The fastest system is not always the most reliable, so you need to find a balance. In my case, my CPU will actually run at 3.6GHz (9x multiplier set in BIOS) BUT it is hotter and very occasionally flakes out when worked hard (loading all four cores with the Prime95 torture test for example). So I back off and accept a "lowly" 3.2GHz in exchange for rock solid stability.

One other thing, if you push your FSB you will overclock your RAM as well, so that needs to be underclocked in its ratio. The nice thing with getting to 1600MHz FSB is that your DDR2-800 RAM can be used in a 1:1 ratio with the raw FSB which is quad clocked 4x400MHz. A 1:1 memory ratio in combination with a Core based Intel CPU gives you the best possible memory/CPU throughput.

Lastly, make sure you lock your PCI bus to 33MHz and your PCIe bus to 100MHz. HDDs especially don't like much deviation from those numbers and can corrupt your data if they exceed their tolerances.

So.... anyone still want to overclock?!

Cheers,

Paul

Gee Vis, sounds like you really know your shit. (Pls don't misinterpret...it's a complement)

 

[Keith Neff]

Can you tell me where to download the clips? Got RedCine running but can't find em....

tnx
Keith