Welcome to our community

Be a part of something great, join today!

Log in
  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

RED celebrates Sony...

Status
Not open for further replies.
M Most said:
Maybe not, but it is very likely that things like displays both large and small, image delivery devices both known and unknown, and ways of delivering that material to "the masses" might eventually be in your hands only becausecompanies like Sony can leverage the economies of scale to develop, manufacture, and deliver those kind of devices in the numbers required to make them at the prices you're talking about.

Cameras can create pictures. Pictures are useless without ways of getting them seen. The front end - the cameras - is a very limited market. The back end - the delivery mediums - is a much, much larger market that requires standards for that delivery, devices to deliver them, and companies large enough to make them in quantity. That's where consumer electronics drives the entertainment industry, and that's why people here need to stop thinking "Red=All That Is Good" and "Sony/Panasonic/Canon/AnyOtherConsumerElectronicsCompanyThatAlsoMakesOtherStuff = All That Is Evil." That's a very limited world view, and not a very accurate one.
Click to expand...

I agree with this 100%, I was talking about what these companies represent to me from a content generation perspective. RED look set to create possibilities for me (and many others I'm sure :) ) that Sony will not.

Sony getting into the 4k market must be a good thing. Being the consumer powerhouse that they are, we can maybe look forward to shooting and delivering at the same (4k) resolution, at home.

To be clear: I'm a big fan of Canon and Sony! I just expressed the difference in how these companies operate vs the experience of watching the development of RED cameras and how they relate to their customers.

It's not that one is good or evil, but I do know where I'm going to spend my 'camera' money. From Canon or Sony's sales perspective, that may be viewed as bad.

Though, I do look forward to viewing RED footage on my as yet unannounced 4K Sony Bravia via my Sony PS4k. :)
 
I don't know...while I'm all for the 4K resolution revolution in the home, I would imagine early adopters are the only ones who would take advantage for a while, whether due to pricing or people who are still just now adopting HDTV's. I think YouTube's 4K service is their chance and attempt to leapfrog other services like iTunes and Netflix, but I believe iTunes to play a large factor in all of this. Their highest res mastered files are 1080P, and they pride themselves on the amount of content they've been able to acquire, as well as the quality. They may try to hold the market back to 1080P as they would have to basically redo so much (ALL) of their content in the new 4K standard if this were to go forward as soon as Jim and others seem to be implying that it could, where they would lose their main advantages over all the other similar businesses (quantity and quality). Just seems an interesting time to see what takes place, another format war to some degree...obviously one is distinctly better than the other, hopefully the general public can see that and lean towards it.

Also, for YouTube 4K...I find this very interesting, as a possibility not just for studio movie rentals and the like, but for filmmakers all over the world to truly show off their art and vision. I think this is a huge kudos to YouTube for offering the output and the audience for higher quality work, hopefully it will be well taken advantage of...just no 4K RickRolling, please...
 
From the Jon Fauer article: "A 1 TB Memory Card recording at 24 fps will store about an hour of “footage.”

If a typical medium to big budget feature film shoots nearly a million feet of film a rough calculation tells me that you'd need around 160 Terabytes of storage for a film shot with the Sony 4K camera :scared: (even more with back-ups, tape storage etc). One of Red's biggest strengths is in the quailty of the image in relation to the comparatively small file sizes (the genius of Redcode, wavelet compression etc...)

"A dockable SR Memory Card Recorder can attach to the camera for recording directly to an SR Memory Card of 256 MB, 512 MB or 1 TB"

I can't wait to see how short that 256 MB memory card lasts :laugh:...maybe half a second, not particularly practical if you ask me :sarcasm:*

* [sorry to be slightly pedantic but this obvious typo did make me laugh]
 
Chase M. Wrenn said:
Also, for YouTube 4K...I find this very interesting, as a possibility not just for studio movie rentals and the like, but for filmmakers all over the world to truly show off their art and vision. I think this is a huge kudos to YouTube for offering the output and the audience for higher quality work, hopefully it will be well taken advantage of...just no 4K RickRolling, please...
Click to expand...

That all sounds great, but I can't even get YouTube videos to play smoothly in 1080P let alone 4K :(. Either they or me (most likely both) needs a giant bandwidth upgrade for 4K TV to work out ...

D
 
If my son and his gaming buddies around the world are anything to go by, their desires for "more" have already helped create a vacuum. I don't expect all of this to be sustained by a love of art, but I'll take it wherever it originates.

Imax moved on the idea of the "quality" factor, and imax will prove to be a lantern slide compared to the future digital image. If "God is in the details", I want to see God ( :
 
David Wyatt said:
From the Jon Fauer article: "A 1 TB Memory Card recording at 24 fps will store about an hour of “footage.”

If a typical medium to big budget feature film shoots nearly a million feet of film a rough calculation tells me that you'd need around 160 Terabytes of storage for a film shot with the Sony 4K camera :scared: (even more with back-ups, tape storage etc). One of Red's biggest strengths is in the quailty of the image in relation to the comparatively small file sizes (the genius of Redcode, wavelet compression etc...)


When will 16:8:8 Colorspace be available? 4:4:4 gone wild!
Click to expand...
 
David Dennis said:
That all sounds great, but I can't even get YouTube videos to play smoothly in 1080P let alone 4K :(. Either they or me (most likely both) needs a giant bandwidth upgrade for 4K TV to work out ...

D
Click to expand...

Are you talking about today or tomorrow?

I'm taking all bets...

Jim
 
Tonight Austrian State Television (ORF) is broadcasting The Viennese Opera Ball 2011 (Wiener OpernBall 2011) STILL in SD believe it or not (just watching it right now!!!).
 
M Most said:
In the current television pilot season, that "soon to be obsolete" Alexa is shaping up as the most popular camera - by far, and including Red, Sony, and everyone else - on single camera style pilots. Out of about 12 pilots the company I currently work for is participating in, two are on Red, and all of the others - all of them - are on Alexa, all recording ProRes. And the company I work for is one that is specifically known for its work with Red. The lesson one might want to take from that is that numbers are one thing, but simplicity and great images are what is currently selling, at least in network level production. That's not a knock on Red or anyone else, but it is at least in part a good explanation for the very wide popularity of the Alexa this pilot season.
Click to expand...

Well the good thing is Jim and Red are very aware of this. They have proposed new modules targeted to the ENG/broadcast crowd. with the size, price, form factor and resolution of the Epic-S. Things are going to be a whole lot different
 
Dane Brehm said:
David Wyatt said:
From the Jon Fauer article: "A 1 TB Memory Card recording at 24 fps will store about an hour of “footage.”

If a typical medium to big budget feature film shoots nearly a million feet of film a rough calculation tells me that you'd need around 160 Terabytes of storage for a film shot with the Sony 4K camera :scared: (even more with back-ups, tape storage etc). One of Red's biggest strengths is in the quailty of the image in relation to the comparatively small file sizes (the genius of Redcode, wavelet compression etc...)


When will 16:8:8 Colorspace be available? 4:4:4 gone wild!
Click to expand...

I guess you have not read the article by Mike from Lightiron. The Storage and data rate for Epic-M are Epic. (he was refering to 3D Stereo)
Click to expand...
 
David Wyatt said:
When will 16:8:8 Colorspace be available? 4:4:4 gone wild!
Click to expand...

I actually started a thread about that. You can view it here: http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=55908

Bottom line: From what I've learned, 16:8:8 is just a term used for 4:2:2 at some (unknown) resolution higher than 720x480. (The N:N:N naming system actually accounts for spatial resolution of an image, not just the ratio of colors.) In other words - it's a new name for an old concept.
 
shashbugu said:
I guess you have not read the article by Mike from Lightiron. The Storage and data rate for Epic-M are Epic. (he was refering to 3D Stereo)
Click to expand...

Estimated data rates for Epic/Scarlet:
1293435891.jpg


According to that, 1TB of SSD will get you ~160min of 5K Full Aperture with a 5:1 compression ratio. Or almost three times more than the Sony per TB.

RED is bigger than little AVCHD or XDCAM codecs, but much smaller than others, including straight up RAW. And for good reason.
 
David Dennis said:
That all sounds great, but I can't even get YouTube videos to play smoothly in 1080P let alone 4K :(. Either they or me (most likely both) needs a giant bandwidth upgrade for 4K TV to work out ...

D
Click to expand...

While I can play 1080 fine, I do notice sync issues with most YouTube videos I watch...not sure why this is though...
 
Shouldn't Red also be celebrating JVC for possibly releasing "Cheap" Quad-HD and 3D Camcorders and Displays over the next year, as previously mentioned elsewhere?

After all, they may move the consumer needle slightly, which may in turn push the pro/prosumer end further into affordable gear for 4K/3D next year...

Obviously, then the discussion turns to image quality and codec and there's not much hiding in 4K territory with substandard codecs...
 
Last edited:
I'm not sure which is more impressive, the 4K sensor technology or the technology to deliver it to TV's and the internet.
 
Leaf Baimbridge said:
I'm not sure which is more impressive, the 4K sensor technology or the technology to deliver it to TV's and the internet.
Click to expand...


Does anybody know the various proposed road-maps and strategies there are to get 4k service into the home?

What does it take to actually achieve this?

I feel like I have been asleep at the wheel.


Cheers,

Eric
 
Tim Whitcomb said:
It may take 4 to 5 years for mainstream Americans to buy 4K TV's enmasse, but 1080P does NOT feel right once you see 4K. Anymore than SD felt right when you saw HD
Click to expand...

It really doesn't matter when it happens, just that it will... that's the point. If you shot 1080p, that is not available for a true 4K release or re-release. Film... no problem.

Jim
 
M Most said:
In the current television pilot season, that "soon to be obsolete" Alexa is shaping up as the most popular camera - by far, and including Red, Sony, and everyone else - on single camera style pilots. Out of about 12 pilots the company I currently work for is participating in, two are on Red, and all of the others - all of them - are on Alexa, all recording ProRes. And the company I work for is one that is specifically known for its work with Red. The lesson one might want to take from that is that numbers are one thing, but simplicity and great images are what is currently selling, at least in network level production. That's not a knock on Red or anyone else, but it is at least in part a good explanation for the very wide popularity of the Alexa this pilot season.
Click to expand...

Television is very conservative - it tends to skew much older on the DPs. Indy film is very young, adverts quite young, music video youngest. Older Dps like Arris simply because it looks and feels more familiar. However, since RedColor 2 and Gamma 2, (not before - before Alexa had a color and dynamic range edge) I fail to see any technical or aesthetic advantage to Alexa.

I shot some stuff on our MX and transferred via Redcolor 2 - and told one such older DP that it was Alexa footage - and he of course said "You see! You see how much nicer the skin tones are! Red could never do that!" This was very interesting.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top