Red = Canon Digital SLR CMOS Chip?

[Clint Johnson]

Canon will be focusing on 1080p HD CMOS with almost every effort on carving the last penny off of producing chips that turn out an image that is "acceptable" to the lowest common denominator.

A smaller portion of this will be spent on making a CMOS sensor that can capture very high quality still images.

There will be no time or money to waste on a market that won't give an ROI equal to the low end video and still, or the high end still cameras. Misappropriating R&D towards 4K cinema might be grounds for discipline if not outright firing. In the 4k digital cinema world, Canon isn't even a niche player.

I wonder if every other manufacturer of 4k digital cinema cameras on the planet combined will sell as many cameras as Red?

It is all about where you focus your spending, not how much money you spend.

 

[E.J. Sadler]

http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2006/06/21

I might have pointed out that looks a lot like using bittorrent to distribute your reel, but people already seem to think I'm an anti-reddite so I'll skip that observation. Ooops, too late.

 

[E.J. Sadler]

Canon will be focusing on 1080p HD CMOS with almost every effort on carving the last penny off of producing chips that turn out an image that is "acceptable" to the lowest common denominator.

A smaller portion of this will be spent on making a CMOS sensor that can capture very high quality still images.

With a unified CMOS platform and EF lens mounts, it makes much more sense to wind up using the exact same sensor. Given that their current CMOS chips and glass don't cater to the LCD, I can't see why you would assume they would take this road.

 

[Dave Cooper]

Once again, apples and oranges. Stills captured from a frame of Video will never look as good as a still from a DSLR. That's an established fact.

I wouldn't apply this logic to RED's camera. It's basically a DSLR that can capture 24+fps. We've all see stills from the camera. What we haven't seen is them in all their RAW glory and they still look like they could have came out of a DSLR.

 

[Clint Johnson]

With a unified CMOS platform and EF lens mounts, it makes much more sense to wind up using the exact same sensor. Given that their current CMOS chips and glass don't cater to the LCD, I can't see why you would assume they would take this road.

With consumer products, the cost of the component rules. With professional products, the quality of the component takes greater import. Canon will spend Red's R&D budget on shaving the last dollar off the production cost of their low end cameras... and rightly so. The design criteria for the two markets are as different as apples and lugnuts.

As of 2007 Canon has no high end digital cinema cameras. That isn't to say that they won't, but the world demand for high end digital cinema cameras probably won't reach 10,000 any time soon and Red's pricing kicks the crap out of any profit that a Canon sized company would find interesting.

They are trying to get the fps up on their SLRs but there is a big gulf between a sensor that works in conjunction with a mechanical shutter to get 8 fps and a sensor designed to capture as high as 60 fps... and the financial incentive to bridge that gap isn't as high as the one to carve another dollar off production costs.

 

[Tonaci Tran]

They're certainly pounding out great stuff from the $1K tiny 1/3", generation old CMOS, HV20 running 1080p/24fps. And, I'm betting that they aren't oblivious to the excitement RED has gathered, and all the interest in DOF adapters.

The best analogy I can think of regarding all of your statements is this:
Imagine going into a forum for Ferrari cars and telling all of the Ferrari enthusiasts that Ferrari will never come close to selling the same amount of cars as Toyota does, nor can they ever make a car that is as efficient with gas.

Until Canon has a 4k digital cinema camera with some amazing compression like redcode raw, then it would make for a more purposeful discussion.

I think it is important to point out that RED has coming out of nowhere and so far has shown a camera that even the veteran camera producers: sony, arri, panasonic, jvc, and canon et al have yet to produce.

 

[E.J. Sadler]

With consumer products, the cost of the component rules. With professional products, the quality of the component takes greater import. Canon will spend Red's R&D budget on shaving the last dollar off the production cost of their low end cameras... and rightly so. The design criteria for the two markets are as different as apples and lugnuts.

You keep acting like Canon doesn't have a huge professional market for their still cameras and still/motion glass. You're also ignoring Canon's well established practice of using consumer markets to leverage better pricing in their professional products.

As of 2007 Canon has no high end digital cinema cameras. That isn't to say that they won't, but the world demand for high end digital cinema cameras probably won't reach 10,000 any time soon and Red's pricing kicks the crap out of any profit that a Canon sized company would find interesting.

I agree that the cinema camera market is small. However, I'd be willing to bet anything that RED's counting a lot on sales to people who won't need anything more than 1080p for quite some time. It's the 1080p market that will drive Canon.

I also don't buy into the thinking that Canon couldn't market a competitively priced highly profitable product. They already have all of the base components and volume manufacturing in place. Having a full size 1080p/24p CMOS in an A1/G1/H1 form factor with an EF mount and flash memory slots instead of the transport is all stuff they know how to do and have been doing, just in separate platforms. A camera like this would be instantly appealing to anybody with EF glass, anybody who bought the A1/G1/H1s, and anybody who's using a DOF adapter. Once this platform is established, throwing in a higher resolution sensor would just be a matter of time. This is exactly how the high resolution 1Ds DSLR evolved from, and was subsidized by, the 1D, and is exactly how a 1080p camera would help subsidize a 2k/4k cinema camera.

 

[E.J. Sadler]

The best analogy I can think of regarding all of your statements is this:
Imagine going into a forum for Ferrari cars and telling all of the Ferrari enthusiasts that Ferrari will never come close to selling the same amount of cars as Toyota does, nor can they ever make a car that is as efficient with gas.

You're also ignoring the fact that Canon has a huge professional market, and makes very high end products that are best in class. Cannon has Ferrari class glass and DSLRs.

You're also ignoring that Canon traditionally rolls out new technology in consumer class equipment first. The HV20 is a testbed for a professional level camera on it's way.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

I might have pointed out that looks a lot like using bittorrent to distribute your reel, but people already seem to think I'm an anti-reddite so I'll skip that observation. Ooops, too late.

Yeah I'm just saying I've seen a lot of "cost cutting" moves by companies in the past. The last frame is the most accurate description of the results.

 

[Joe Carney]

EJ, here is a link over a dvinfo.net/conf. Scroll down to the post made by Charles Papert on this very subject. He puts it very clearly and succintly the difference between still and motion photography and the issues involved. In case you're wondering, he is a seasoned pro and worth listening too.

http://dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=39155&page=3

 

[John Godden]

Non HDV compressed footage from this chip is pretty amazing for a generation old 1/3" chip in a consumer camera.

I sold mine because it handled motion so poorly. Otherwise a nice camera.

JohnG

 

[Tonaci Tran]

But if anyone thinks the still frames from the RED are as good or better than Canon's current generation DSLRs, they're just hittin' the kool-aid a little too hard.

So you are saying Jim is a Kool Aid addict?

 

[Yannick Hagman]

The best analogy I can think of regarding all of your statements is this:
Imagine going into a forum for Ferrari cars and telling all of the Ferrari enthusiasts that Ferrari will never come close to selling the same amount of cars as Toyota does, nor can they ever make a car that is as efficient with gas.

That's a very accurate analogy. Ferraris can't be driven at full speed in almost every country. But they are instead used for shopping tours or just to show off in front of neighbors. There is more than a handful of such guys in this forum with the same intention.

I sold mine because it handled motion so poorly.

Ever seen fast moving shots in a hollywood picture apart from Bruckheimer high speed shots with special cameras? 24P can't handle motion. But archives a specific look. I like this look.

 

[mdo]

"War has a way of masking the stage with scenery crudely daubed with fearsome apparitions."

-- Carl Von Clausewitz, "On War"

The history of innovation is one in which brilliant and creative entrepreneurs ignored fearsome apparitions that, when push comes to shove, seem to be so gawd awful REAL.

Yeah, Canon, and a half a dozen other companies, could make a really killer camera. Currently that datum has the force and substance of a fearsome apparition. Not even that, actually. There are such an enormous number of variables affecting the outcome of this game, that information about Canon is pretty close to irrelevant.

After all, what are the chances that anyone could have hammered out a successful eyewear company in the face such a glut of eyewear? Jim Jannard accomplished that by doing a better job than anyone else of finding out precisely what his customers wanted.

The fact is that the golden ring is going to go to the person who is most accomplished at listening to customers needs. Big companies are notoriously bad at that. From what I hear, it's Jim Jannard's specialty.

 

[Tonaci Tran]

That's a very accurate analogy. Ferraris can't be driven at full speed in almost every country. But they are instead used for shopping tours or just to show off in front of neighbors. There is more than a handful of such guys in this forum with the same intention.

Perhaps..but to fine tune my analogy. To me, red is offering a ferrari for the price Toyota Camry that can be used daily and is efficient (due to redcode raw).

Anyways, the point of my analogy was identify how pointless it is for EJ Salder to compare sensors, stating that one is better than another when the two companies, although they both make digital motion cameras, are still very different just as Ferrari is so different from Toyota.

Ej Sadler's: "the Mysterium is almost as good as Canon's last generation chip, but it's nowhere close to Canon's current CMOS"

As smokin as Canon is with their cmos, they currently have not shown anything sensor that can do 60fps at 4k. My response, therefore, is that Canon has not shown any 4k cmos 60fps sensor anywhere close to the Mysterium, nor has Sony, Arri or Panasonic.

 

[Joe Carney]

Red has another big advantage over the 'big' companies. It's privately held, so no stockholders to deal with.
Another problem the biggies have is layers of mid level white collar workers who's only goal is to retire with a nice pension and health care. Anything that rocks that boat gets attacked. Those people are why it sometimes takes forever for policies and procedures to get changed.

Let's hope Red never gets turned into a bloated mega corp.

 

[Yannick Hagman]

Good points, it will certainly rock. There are a lot more important factors than cameras tough. Many seem to forget this. I would rather buy a 2k camera for a third of the costs.

As for the sensor: We don't know who builts it, but it's certainly not RED. You can compare their situation with Hasselblad.

 

[Michael Hastings]

Watch out for Nikon.

Watch out for Nikon.

In 4k? E.J. Sadler got the point. The danger for RED is not Sony nor Arri, it's Canon, Hitachi, JVC and Panasonic. And Canon did a really great job so far. I wouldn't be surprised to see a bigger CMOS pretty soon from them.

I would suggest Nikon is the company that has the most to gain and the least to lose since they don't sell highend glass to Sony Panasonic etc, who could switch to Fujinon exclusively if they became annoyed by Canon doing a RED/F900 competitor. Nikon used to make some broadcast lenses but abandoned the market. If an SLR manufacturer increases their frame rate to 24 on their cameras (maybe a bulkier version to allow additional electronics) they have a hell of a package. Nor does Nikon have a full line of camcorders that would be disrupted if they came out with a RED type camera.

One of the things that could boost the market for REDs from thousands to tens of thousands would be a broadcast video style zoom lens for the RED - say a 20mm - 300 mm zoom with integrated servo zoom/motorized iris.

I know birger and others are making zoom motors for the Cine and still lenses but it just doesn't seem to be as slick for handheld/shoulder work as a typical ENG/EFP zoom.

 

[Ezana Tekeste]

That's a very accurate analogy. Ferraris can't be driven at full speed in almost every country. But they are instead used for shopping tours or just to show off in front of neighbors. There is more than a handful of such guys in this forum with the same intention.

Implicit in your assertion seems to be that people buy a Ferrari primarily for its speed. The Ferrari, like many other highly-coveted, expensive items, is mostly a status symbol. It's probably a safe guess that for a large percentage of people (mostly guys, really) who buy a Ferrari, the car is used to non-verbally announce "I've arrived."

As for the Red One, I don't think the overwhelming majority of the public would look at the Red One and think "wow, I want to own that sexy beast one day." Sure a Red One owner would probably impress a few of his or her friends who also happen to be fellow traveling geeks. But, unlike the Ferrari, the general public would look at the Red and shrug.

My point is that I'm unconvinced that people would buy the Red One so that they can flash it as a status symbol. What has made the Red One such a phenomenon in such a short period of time has been not how nice it looks, but how well it seems to deliver on its primary advertised purpose: capturing moving images.

Mike

 

[vidalsosa]

Okay, now that's it, I've had enough of this petty patronizing b*&^%^it!! Who's the real Canon of America VP Sales & Marketing - Muroshi or Sadler - Hands up... now!

Give it up big boys... Red's here to stay.