Red Camera Motion Picture Examples And 4k Workflow

[Joe Carney]

Price is relative. For feature film and commercial production, would pricing for 35mm or 35mm w/DI not still be the standard?

I've been told by a client that also recently worked with the Genesis that our package was literally 1/2 the price. If the Genesis pricing is about double everyone else, then every competitor looks as you say "cheap" because the Genesis is quite expensive- even compared to 35mm.

I found the DALSA 4K cameras are priced well and competitive, and can't remember any client in recent history with a real budget complaining.



I'm going to disagree with you about status and classifications. For many, many products (e.g. cars, wine, cameras) there will always be a low, middle and high-end. Now obviously I'm biased, but as far as DALSA's 4K digital cinema cameras go, I still haven't seen any competitor with more apparent resolution or dynamic range. As of today, and with the exception of the noX camera, I believe I've seen all of them projected.

The Evolution will be out in 2008, and it's simply amazing, rental pricing is still TBD. There's a few more surprise goodies coming soon too.

I.

Illya Friedman
Dalsa
Woodland Hills, CA
www.dalsa.com/dc

Thats another issue, rent only. But something for everyone I guess.

 

[reality]

Price is relative. For feature film and commercial production, would pricing for 35mm or 35mm w/DI not still be the standard?

I've been told by a client that also recently worked with the Genesis that our package was literally 1/2 the price. If the Genesis pricing is about double everyone else, then every competitor looks as you say "cheap" because the Genesis is quite expensive- even compared to 35mm.

I found the DALSA 4K cameras are priced well and competitive, and can't remember any client in recent history with a real budget complaining.

But that's confusing. If Dalsa is better in every way than everyone else, wouldn't you want to price it at least as high as the Genesis? How would one explain that at such a high cost, the Genesis is very successful compared to the Dalsa? To me it doesn't makes sense unless the the Dalsa cameras are missing something that the Genesis has or is just not used for the same types of projects. Seems like an easy decision to go with Dalsa if it's a better product for half the price. No?

Is it because you don't realize that you're sitting on a gold mine and are undervaluing your own products? It is Hollywood after all and worth is related
to price and not true value.

How much will the Evolution rent for and will it be able to compete with the Red camera at a competitive price? Will you be able to buy the Evolution?

 

[Illya Friedman]

But that's confusing.

No it's not. You just need to understand the rental market. By your logic, rental houses can't list a SD DVW790 at $1200/day, and another list a Varicam for $800 a day. The Varicam is clearly a better camera, but that's the list price reality.

The bottom line is we want people to use our 4K cameras. It is possible to price yourself out of the $5M and below feature market, and I think the Genesis has done that. You have about half dozen cameras all around the 12-15K/week price and you have one (Genesis) that is double the price. Panavision is rumored to have only 30 Genesis cameras and 400+ 35mm cameras.

It's pure conjecture on my part as I don't work for them and don't know their business model, but my guess is they want (and need) people to keep renting from the film inventory for a very, very long time.

I.

Illya Friedman
Dalsa
Woodland Hills, CA
www.dalsa.com/dc

 

[reality]

How is Dalsa doing in the 5M and below market vs the 5M and above market? I haven't heard much about which features are shooting with the Dalsa. Anything that has been in theaters yet or soon?

I've heard there are 50 Genesis now.
How does that compare with the D20 or the Dalsa?

I'm not sure if you've heard this or not, but Panavision says that Dalsa is not even an option for features.

 

[Michael Hastings]

Ilya, thanks for your involvement.

Ilya, thanks for your involvement.

No it's not. You just need to understand the rental market. ....

The bottom line is we want people to use our 4K cameras. It is possible to price yourself out of the $5M and below feature market, and I think the Genesis has done that. You have about half dozen cameras all around the 12-15K/week price and you have one (Genesis) that is double the price. Panavision is rumored to have only 30 Genesis cameras and 400+ 35mm cameras.

Illya Friedman
Dalsa

For my business - underwater, documentary, nature stock footage, etc. - ownership is the only thing that makes sense and RED at it's purchase price point is a godsend.

However, I really appreciate that there are other US manufacturers with great technology.

Most of all I appreciate your input here on the forum. Even though I may be an unlikely customer, I want to understand the existing and upcoming technology as well as the limitations/advantages of my gear.

One of the things I have been known for over the years in my underwater housing business has been the ability to discuss intelligently and without substantial bias, the various technical options. I can only continue to do this with the input of knowledgeable insiders such as yourself, Jim, Graeme, Stuart English, some of the players at Panasonic, Sony, Arri, etc., who's opinions have the weight of intelligence and experience.

Again, thanks.

Mike

 

[Mark B.]

So, filming lightning bolts in the sky will likely result in some portion of the bolt being cut off?

 

[Paul Hazlett]

thats a really cool shot, the short depth really works well.

looking forward to more!!

 

[Illya Friedman]

Reality, feel free to contact me in person if you'd like to come in and see all this for yourself. I can also answer any other questions you may have, that way we won't hi-jack this thread from Red's rolling shutter issue.

But in answer to your questions...

I haven't heard much about which features are shooting with the Dalsa.

Yes, and that's intentional. As of now, I can't discuss the 4K features that have shot either entirely or in part in this forum. This will inevitably change as the projects get closer to release, and then everyone in the D.Cinema community will be able to read all about them.

Other than the Red and Sony's F23, DALSA makes one of the youngest digital cinema cameras commercially available. I'm already extremely pleased with the quantity and caliber of jobs in such a short time. Sony is making good progress as well with the F23, but I know they also aren't allowed to name all the names yet.

In regards to what some other manufacturers/rental houses say, much of those things get back to me. And thankfully you can't say those things to a large intelligent community (like this one), and not have people consider the source of the information! Since other houses in the LA area can't offer the DALSA 4K cameras (many have asked) there's definitely jealousy.

I've had many clients come in to our office directly after visiting "the others" (manufacturers and their authorized reps) and they tell some interesting stories. Anyone who's tested our system for themselves doesn't believe the nonsense. I look at it as a badge of honor that they sling mud; many will back peddle with excuses (in the same breath) if you ask them to do a side-by-side shootout with us.


I.

Illya Friedman
Dalsa
Woodland Hills, CA
www.dalsa.com/dc

 

[Illya Friedman]

...Again, thanks.

My pleasure. Thanks for the kind words.


I.

Illya Friedman
Dalsa
Woodland Hills, CA
www.dalsa.com/dc

 

[liquidigital]

You have about half dozen cameras all around the 12-15K/week price and you have one (Genesis) that is double the price.

$12-15k a week rental vs. $17,500 to own. It's a no-brainer for me.

That's why I want to hug Jim Jannard.

 

[snarfer]

According to the Lightning Strikes website, All Lightning Strikes fixtures "limit the shortest flash duration to 1/24th of a second." Lightning Strikes can be synced to the camera shutter, but only when using the "16 Light Sequencer."

Then there is the Unilux strobe system, which flashes "in sync with the camera shutter, exposing each frame for 1/100,000 of a second." As far as I can see this exposure time is not adjustable.

Finally, there is the AF1000 DataFlash, and similarly designed competitors. Minimum flash duration is either 1/120 of a second, in the case of 60 Hz power, or 1/100 of a second in the case of 50 Hz power, and is adjustable in multiples of this basic rate. This is the unit one would expect to encounter in a theatrical setting. There is no obvious way to sync it to the shutter.

Perhaps it would be possible to sync Lightning Strikes and AF1000 DataFlash units by converting the camera shutter sync output to MIDI and then inputting the MIDI control signal to a DMX control board. But I have never seen it done, and can only speculate that it might be possible.

 

[Gabriel Teran]

Well the workflow seems to change weekly as Red is doing a great job making the software more user friendly. Kona cannot do 4k but redalert cannot out a 4K quicktime, only 2K and the kona can do 2K. The red raw codec now seems to work great FCP6.

1. Shoot 4K
2. Import into RedAlert (untill redcine is available)
3. do a grade in 4k
4. Save grad, make proxy at 2K in Redalert
5. Import 2K proxy into FCP6
6. Quick render in FCP6 / use the Kona 3 to do a 2K crop so you can output and monitor 1080Psf
7. Be very thankfull that this all kinda works finally
8. collect paycheck
9. Do it all again but hopefully with new builds and bugs

Marc!!!! U R such Gig!!! I love it...

LOL.

gabriel