Red Camera Motion Picture Examples And 4k Workflow

[I Bloom]

Does film camera have the same problem with strobes?

So could this be fixed in post?

A film camera has a similar need to sync with strobes, but it does not create that very digital looking horizontal split.

You might fix it in post, but only by painting...so the real answer is no.

Their are always compromises and trade offs with any technology. If you are using heavy strobing for a music video and you want to shoot digitally, you might consider the Dalsa Origin, which has a mechanical shutter and reads off a CCD rather than CMOS. But don't forget, no REDCODE compression on Dalsa, no purchasing the camera and the rental price is not so nice.

The only thing that bothers me about the rolling shutter on RED is lightning. :bye2:

IBloom

 

[Stephen Williams]

Note:


If you really need to catch it then always think 360 shutter...


JohnF

Hi,

Personally I don't like a 360 degree shutter, I prefer the film look of motion. Hopefully there will be a better solution from Red.

Stephen

 

[JohnF]

The solution is already out there, synced strobes!

The genlock output from the camera should be all that's need to provide a sync pulse for the stobes control systems. (though a "little-black-box" maybe needed to facilitate this)

JohnF

 

[Illya Friedman]

A film camera has a similar need to sync with strobes, but it does not create that very digital looking horizontal split.

You might fix it in post, but only by painting...so the real answer is no.

Their are always compromises and trade offs with any technology. If you are using heavy strobing for a music video and you want to shoot digitally, you might consider the Dalsa Origin, which has a mechanical shutter and reads off a CCD rather than CMOS. But don't forget, no REDCODE compression on Dalsa, no purchasing the camera and the rental price is not so nice.

The only thing that bothers me about the rolling shutter on RED is lightning. :bye2:

IBloom

I wouldn't say that. Last I checked an Origin II rents for roughly the same as a Viper using tapeless acquisition, significantly less than an F23/SRW1, and only half the price of a Genesis. In the world of high-end D Cinema we're definitely competitive.

And yes, since there is a real mechanical shutter (just below the optical viewfinder) there is NO rolling shutter artifacts in our 4K cameras.

I.

Illya Friedman
Dalsa
Woodland Hills, CA
www.dalsa.com/dc

 

[Graeme Nattress]

But does not the mechanical rotating shutter not act like a rolling shutter in that it takes a finite amount of time to wipe across the image?

Graeme

 

[Anders Holck]

Sure, but as the halfmoon blade wipe is done in the light path where its out of focus so it will act more like a general image attenuation.

My guess is that the flash look varying in intensity, instead of wiped.

You will still miss un synched flashes bit the cut off will be much more diffuse.

 

[Michael Lindsay]

But does not the mechanical rotating shutter not act like a rolling shutter in that it takes a finite amount of time to wipe across the image?

Graeme

would love this answered as this is my, albiet lay, understanding....

Michael

 

[Anders Holck]

Regarding this artifact on the RED, I can only see it as a problem with bursts that have an extremely short on-off changeover as it will only affect the readout /reset period. Any info you can share regarding the readout/reset timing when running 24 fps 1/48?

Regarding HMI they should not be affected in any way as they never shut off , due to the lamp afterglow. Even if using an old mechanical ballast with the camera running off sync, the flicker it's more like a 100% to 60% alternating sinus curve in intensity, which wouldnt show up as a wipe but a varying gradient. Haven't used a non flicker free HMI in a long time personally.

 

[Anders Holck]

Oh, and the 360° shutter would not fix this, as it's not really about the shutter per se. but about the time it takes for the sensor to be read out and reset for the next exposure, and the fact that you cannot start and stop integration for the whole sensor at the same instant.

I must say that Im really impressed at the readout improvements made since Crossing the line. Very few CMOS cameras comes close to this performance.

Electronic strobes are really tough because of the instant on-off. You'd be hard pressed to find any natural occurring phenomenon not having some ramping in its transition, which will look much more organic.

 

[Graeme Nattress]

Yes, we made some serious improvements after "Crossing the Line". If it's a physical rotating shutter or a rolling shutter, you're always going to have some artifact from it. I guess building a optical temporal anti-alias filter is out of the question?

Graeme

 

[Deanan]

Oh, and the 360° shutter would not fix this, as it's not really about the shutter per se. but about the time it takes for the sensor to be read out and reset for the next exposure, and the fact that you cannot start and stop integration for the whole sensor at the same instant.

On some sensors, yes. But not in the case of the Mysterium. It is possible
to strobe inside of an exposure and not cross the shutter boundaries.

I must say that Im really impressed at the readout improvements made since Crossing the line. Very few CMOS cameras comes close to this performance..

Thanks. It was a challenge and we still have more improvments
coming.

DEanan

 

[Anders Holck]

On some sensors, yes. But not in the case of the Mysterium. It is possible
to strobe inside of an exposure and not cross the shutter boundaries.

What I meant was that no matter how fast you make the readout, if the strobe fires off sync halfway through the readout you still get a wiped flash, right?

But of cause very easy to defeat with a synced flash unit.

 

[Deanan]

What I meant was that no matter how fast you make the readout, if the strobe fires off sync halfway through the readout you still get a wiped flash, right?

But of cause very easy to defeat with a synced flash unit.

Right.

 

[reality]

I wouldn't say that. Last I checked an Origin II rents for roughly the same as a Viper using tapeless acquisition, significantly less than an F23/SRW1, and only half the price of a Genesis.

Wow. That's cheap!

Why is the price of the Origin so low? I thought it would
more than the Genesis. Shouldn't it be more than the
F23 or the Genesis considering how much more
resolution and latitude it's supposed to have?

 

[I Bloom]

But does not the mechanical rotating shutter not act like a rolling shutter in that it takes a finite amount of time to wipe across the image?

Graeme

Graeme, it is basically the same. The only difference is that the shutter is between the back element of the lense and the chip. The wipe it creates is very out of focus. Rolling shutter artifacts happen during the readout of the chip. On Dalsa this readout always takes place in the dark.

I started an article attempting to explain this, I'd appreciate your comments/modifications:
http://www.redhax.net/wiki/Understanding_Rolling_Shutter_Artifacts

I wouldn't say that. Last I checked an Origin II rents for roughly the same as a Viper using tapeless acquisition, significantly less than an F23/SRW1, and only half the price of a Genesis. In the world of high-end D Cinema we're definitely competitive.

And yes, since there is a real mechanical shutter (just below the optical viewfinder) there is NO rolling shutter artifacts in our 4K cameras.

I.

Illya Friedman
Dalsa
Woodland Hills, CA
www.dalsa.com/dc

Illya, I love Dalsa. I've worked with Dalsa cameras in engineering applications before I switched to film.

But I think you guys need to think about that word "high end" a little bit more. In accordance with Moores law it's meaning less and less these days.

IBloom

 

[Graeme Nattress]

Oh yes, the effect of a rolling shutter is different to a film shutter, but still the film shutter has artifacts of it's own.

Graeme

 

[Bruce Allen]

Oh yes, the effect of a rolling shutter is different to a film shutter, but still the film shutter has artifacts of it's own.

Graeme

I think what everyone is trying to say is that the CMOS rolling shutter artifacts look horrible whereas film rolling shutter artifacts don't?

I started an article attempting to explain this, I'd appreciate your comments/modifications:
http://www.redhax.net/wiki/Understanding_Rolling_Shutter_Artifacts

ibloom, your wiki seems to say that only digital cinema cameras with mechanical shutters are free from rolling shutter artifacts? Perhaps you should mention that CCD-based cameras (Viper, F900, Varicam, etc) are also free from those artifacts?

In terms of synchronizing the strobes, the Silicon Imaging people were answering a thread in a very honest and detailed fashion about this in relation to their camera:
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=94821

I agree that with Red, I guess Genlock is the way to go? Anyone have a pointer to precise info on this?

By the way, I don't think this is too big of a problem. Unless you're trying to film the Olympics or something...

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[I Bloom]

I think what everyone is trying to say is that the CMOS rolling shutter artifacts look horrible whereas film rolling shutter artifacts don't?



ibloom, your wiki seems to say that only digital cinema cameras with mechanical shutters are free from rolling shutter artifacts? Perhaps you should mention that CCD-based cameras (Viper, F900, Varicam, etc) are also free from those artifacts?

In terms of synchronizing the strobes, the Silicon Imaging people were answering a thread in a very honest and detailed fashion about this in relation to their camera:
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=94821

I agree that with Red, I guess Genlock is the way to go? Anyone have a pointer to precise info on this?

By the way, I don't think this is too big of a problem. Unless you're trying to film the Olympics or something...

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

Bruce I think it depends on what kind of CCD, most video cameras can avoid the shutter artifacts but have a much worse problem vertical smear. Only a camera with a frame-transfer CCD can really avoid all the problems but I think those chips have other issues, not to mention cost. I think Dalsa uses a normal CCD and protects the readout period with a mechanical shutter.

I'd say there is a market for a modified RED with an optional mechanical shutter.

Anyways, that's why it's a wiki. Modify it!

Ian

 

[Illya Friedman]

Wow. That's cheap!

Why is the price of the Origin so low? I thought it would
more than the Genesis. Shouldn't it be more than the
F23 or the Genesis considering how much more
resolution and latitude it's supposed to have?

Price is relative. For feature film and commercial production, would pricing for 35mm or 35mm w/DI not still be the standard?

I've been told by a client that also recently worked with the Genesis that our package was literally 1/2 the price. If the Genesis pricing is about double everyone else, then every competitor looks as you say "cheap" because the Genesis is quite expensive- even compared to 35mm.

I found the DALSA 4K cameras are priced well and competitive, and can't remember any client in recent history with a real budget complaining.

But I think you guys need to think about that word "high end" a little bit more. In accordance with Moores law it's meaning less and less these days.

I'm going to disagree with you about status and classifications. For many, many products (e.g. cars, wine, cameras) there will always be a low, middle and high-end. Now obviously I'm biased, but as far as DALSA's 4K digital cinema cameras go, I still haven't seen any competitor with more apparent resolution or dynamic range. As of today, and with the exception of the noX camera, I believe I've seen all of them projected.

The Evolution will be out in 2008, and it's simply amazing, rental pricing is still TBD. There's a few more surprise goodies coming soon too.

I.

Illya Friedman
Dalsa
Woodland Hills, CA
www.dalsa.com/dc

 

[Illya Friedman]

Only a camera with a frame-transfer CCD can really avoid all the problems

DALSA's 4K digital cinema cameras happen to use a custom frame transfer CCD, it is available nowhere else.

You can read a little about it here:

http://www.dalsa.com/dc/4K_products/origin_sensor.asp

I.

Illya Friedman
Dalsa
Woodland Hills, CA
www.dalsa.com/dc