Red Cage or Big Magazine

[Mark L. Pederson]

I recently spoke to a hollywood director who just wrapped a $150 million dollar studio film - he fully intends to shoot his next film with RED cameras -

Hollywood is slowly warming up to digital ... as soon as they start seeing low budget indie features shot in 4K ... they see RED fast ...

 

[tj williams]

So BIG MAGAZINE might be say 720GB? or maybe 1440?

 

[Poi Boy]

Right on Joelnet !

Hey TJ, what is user world ? and Welina Mai also sounds like something I should know. I know most of the production folks out here in the grass hut and jungle world.
Aloha
-A

 

[tj williams]

So BIG MAGAZINE might be say 720GB? or maybe 1440?

JoelNetQuote: "If 10 old asc old timers want to wax skeptical on some other board..."
Every year I learn about more things I don't know. I really look back nostalgically to those early years when I knew all there was to know!

Lets include Bollywood and call it 150 movies made by studios with distribution deals in front (of course this is a wild ass guess) now lets ask the question how many people in the audience. Like an airline the measure is seats filled!
How many saw the other 6000? I think we all know the answer...

 

[Poi Boy]

How is the number of butts in the seats relevant to red acceptance by grand pubba DPs ?? the answer is not at all. When the results get around it won't matter what the frickin cameras looks like.. period. it will be in demand by everyone.
Aloha
-A

 

[Appleton]

Wasn't going to post this, but since this thread keeps going like the Energizer bunny rabbit.

From another board :

What matters most is the practicality of the size for the type of shots you need to do (I don't really care if some vain actors or shallow producers only feel happy when they are surrounded by huge expensive equipment -- they'll get over it.)

There is a point where a camera that is TOO tiny (like a palmcorder size) is just too lightweight to do classic smooth tripod / dolly movements as someone pulls focus, or if the camera is too small to rest on your shoulder but too big to hold out in front of you.
But the size of the RED camera seems like a good all-around size, not too tiny but not too bulky (especially compared to the giant 4K Dalsa Origin camera). You can make it bigger just by putting on a big mattebox, studio follow-focus, onboard monitor, etc. -- and if you really want to go nuts, put a monster 35mm cine zoom on it like an Ang. Optimo! David Mullen, ASC

The point is that form factor (aesthetically) and trying to create a traditional workflow purely out of some faux sense of comfort is counter productive. like all other new cameras, RED will both borrow and adapt from a variety of workflows. what camera is chosen for a production comes down to too many variables to quantify (depending on the production). what is evident is that "talent" supercedes every other consideration. if enough talented above the line crew want to work with the camera it'll happen...and i've never been i a meeting where they scrapped a camera because of its aesthetics or even tech quirks.

personally, i'd rather be innovating than following - both artistically and technically. i'm sure there are enough DP's, both new and old who are sympatico with that.

one of the things i can't wait for, is for this forum to start talking about the creative with regards to directing, cinematography, and all other departments where RED is on set...less talk about why z bolt doesn't match q bolt on the o ring of the mitchell spring level, and why that means we you won't be shooting something with excellence.

maybe we'lll be talking about the tech serving the artist instead of the opposite...that's what RED was supposed to be about in the first place, IMZHO...

just my op.

 

[Poi Boy]

I feel you.
-A

 

[tj williams]

PoiBoy: RED USERS GROUPS theres a WORLD map at the top. Hawaii and another place I thought was only ocean have a few reservation holders? Maybe someone on a boat? did you put yourself there. couple others in Hawaii!
anyhooo couldn't find ya??? I'm in Seattle just wish I was in Hawaii, will be next September. going to watch a friend paddle/race outriggers.

Just my opinion but most businesses, and this is a biz, measure the importance by numbers served! profits made. Sure there are great films that are never seen, or poorly marketed or without wide appeal because they are whatever. Point bein 100/6000 apples and mangos.
When Panasonic brought out their cheap HD, they weren't after having it used in major features. When RED 1 was designed it is technically capable of major work, and I think the RED team wants it used in major features. I would also like that as it will add credibility and help me sell days on my camera... I guess at bottom it's about greed?

Anyway this thread has as the post above has suggested runs "like an energizer bunny." I'd say a crazy rabbit. My frustration with the RED site materials which don't show much about the camera design as probably mostly used, but show lotsa cages n glows has spawned the damndest collection of concerns anyone could ever have imagined:

Old versus young, strange verses standard, importance unimportance of the look of a tool, established Dp versus new, form versus function, etc. etc.

My only concern was that if I were going to add to the size weight of my camera I would have liked to add some additional function which I could presently understand as useful in a tool. ie a larger magazine.

some vain actors or shallow producers only feel happy when they are surrounded by huge expensive equipment -- they'll get over it.)

Whether the actors will quickly get over having something that looks like a prop from Aliens III pointed at them is perhaps another question. (joking around)

one of the things i can't wait for, is for this forum to start talking about the creative with regards to directing, cinematography, and all other departments where RED is on set...less talk about why z bolt doesn't match q bolt on the o ring of the mitchell spring level, and why that means we you won't be shooting something with excellence.

Well this is a little gear headed! Form factor in a tool and the tool enabling camera operators, to use the reflexes and physical skills they've spent a lot of time learning, seems to me like the technology supporting the artist if the artist we are discussing is the operator. 11+ stops of dynamic range, luts, high rez, etc. seems like the tool supporting the artist, if the artist is the Dp.

IF the artist is the director or makeup person or costume designer then it won't matter a rip how the camera is configured, or what camera is used.
There are a lot of sites that discuss these folks issues.

 

[Poi Boy]

I'm on the map man.. the most remote land mass in the world ! You'll be here in September? I'll have my 1st camera, you probably won't; let's get toghether for a cocktail and you can check it out.
Aloha
-A

 

[tj williams]

Poi Thankyou!

 

[Joel Kaye]

How many saw the other 6000? I think we all know the answer...

From RED's standpoint it doesn't matter if 3 people see the other 6000 movies... a whole lot more camera packages were required to shoot those 6000 than the big 150 studio movies.

But think about it - including TV there's a helluva lotta stuff being shot on F-900's, Varicams and even smaller cameras... plus a lot of SD. There USED to be a lot of 35mm shooting those shows. Those are all prime RED markets... and A LOT of butts in seats somewhere watching. How many people watch Battlestar Galactica (F900)? Something like 1 million on TV and 6 million online. Welcome to the future.

BTW, Netflix rents about 30% blockbusters and 70% from their catalog. That's the opposite of what a Hollywood Video or Blockbuster retail location does. Why? They can't stock as many units so they overload with blockbusters. But is that what people actually WANT? Apparently not if Netflix is an indicator.

I'm not going to sit here and say RED will be better than film for quality, but I'm am willing to say that it's going to put the quality so close that the average viewer (or distributor) won't have a clue what's what... and that will be a techtonic shift.

It may well be 5 more years before we start seeing the next generation break out with a lot of good low budget stuff though. This always reminds me of when the desktop publishing thing started. Most typesetters laughed but some bought a Mac and a laser printer.

 

[Don King]

The point is that form factor (aesthetically) and trying to create a traditional workflow purely out of some faux sense of comfort is counter productive. like all other new cameras, RED will both borrow and adapt from a variety of workflows.

Versatility is the key indeed, since there isn't only a kind of Red One purchaser or user.

 

[Brainstorm]

Versatility is the key indeed, since there isn't only a kind of Red One purchaser or user.

There are as many types of RED users are there are RED buyers. We do not all want the same set-up... nor do we all want to watch the same type of films, thank God!

Biodiversity keeps our planet's genome healthy. Versatility keeps the human mind healthy. Monoculture kills the spirit of the mind and planet!

 

[Robert Jackson]

When portable broadcast video cameras first came out they cabled off to a video deck with a nice thick cable. It took a second crew member to carry the deck around.

I wish someone had told my producer that. I used to carry around an Ickegami tube camera on my right shoulder and a Sony U-Matic deck slung over my left shoulder. The deck was about 15 pounds, but you had to carry spare batteries. The camera was another 12-15 pounds and you needed to carry spare batteries for it, too. Not to mention stuffing as many of those 10-minute U-Matic tapes into the pockets of the deck's case as you could. I shot the opening season of the Orlando Magic with that rig in '89. It was pretty long in the tooth by then, but I wasn't the only guy still using them. By the end of the evening I'd feel like I'd done as much work as the guys on the court.

 

[tj williams]

RR yea I guess I had the high end of Umatic prod. but the other guy had to also carry the sound boom. This is why I hate the idea of a giant raid on a string. what a step backward!

Variety is the Key: This is my idea of variety. Maybe you can think of other setups I've not mentioned?

1. Cine Studio RED, set up with long VF/ leveling rod double mags or larger mag on a fisher 11 dolly mounted on a wheels head, with all the cine accessories, studio follow focus, binocs., top mtd lcd, lens light, sliding base plate 6by6matt box with eyebrow siders etc. etc.

2. Underwater RED basic red body special lens in it's underwater housing looking out the dome port from one of the mfgs of underwater housings. looking out of a water tank! best if there is a scuba diver operating it in the tank. acceptable if the operator just reaches down into a smaller aquarium.

3. Hand held cine RED like the renderings with the dual handles except with a zeiss prime lens, light weight follow focus with whip and clip on or light weight support matte box.

4. ENG RED basic body with padded shoulder pod and windowed MYSTERIUM using an HD lens with B mount to PL adapter, with zoom hooked up and powered from the RED body, extra mic. in a holster, four radio receivers on the back, shotgun shock mounted on top in a fuzzy cover.

5. Digital guy RED, Setup in a cage, hand held by a guy on a long-board with a full immersion helmet to frame with. Nikon 17to 35 with auto focus, auto focus nikon mount after-market attachment. transmitted video audio out by blue tooth.

6. Steadicam RED Probably MK IV ALIEN derived sled which allows the camera to rotate on the end of a super post so it can crane up and down. This is kinda the bleeding edge of steadicam tech. so quite appropriate to the camera, and Howard would probably love the exposure.

So go to the RED site and look at all the renderings. Now you tell me which of this variety of options is emphasized?

(*5)?

Do you feel the renderings reflect the way most will use the camera?

 

[Joel Kaye]

Digital guy RED, Setup in a cage, hand held by a guy on a long-board with a full immersion helmet to frame with. Nikon 17to 35 with auto focus, auto focus nikon mount after-market attachment. transmitted video audio out by blue tooth.

Hahaha. What a great setup. Just add monsters and karo syrup.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

5. Digital guy RED, Setup in a cage, hand held by a guy on a long-board with a full immersion helmet to frame with. Nikon 17to 35 with auto focus, auto focus nikon mount after-market attachment. transmitted video audio out by blue tooth.

Hey, I'm all for it if someone comes up with an autofocus add-on for the Nikon mount. ...Bluetooth isn't going to work, but wireless HDMI supporting up to 1080p60 is available now and it goes up to 200ft in open spaces or nearly 3x that if you boost the signal. :matrix:

 

[tj williams]

I decided to make some pictures for myself of how I would like to configure my red to get a better visual idea of what accessories I might need. Here is my
ENG/Doc. version using our HD lens it would shoot with the windowed sensor.
I was amazed after seeing the many RED renders on the site that when I sorta paper-dolled this together from several photos it looks rather like a conventional HD camcorder? It will be interesting to find out what buttons switches connectors do what so I will have a better idea of the ergonomics.