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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Red at www.cinematography.com, why so much bashing?

c.coms red forum is just a waste of time.

incompetent moderators and posters have given this usually interesting source of information a bad name.

i suppose that the gossip (none of the moderators ever owned one of the discussed cameras from sony, arri, thon, red, s:i, phantom, gv etc) is true.

however: the subforum is usually only frequented by 4-8 people who post.

and the mods of c.com certainly post more in this forum than in their ""own"".

i tried in 06 and 07 to post there, but i came to the conclusion that i will need for another 24 to 36 months untils mods and poster
accept reality. i was even banned when i unofficially predicted that arri would discontinue the D-20.


since then any of my employees have to follow a strict non-post policy on c.com,, and i think this policy has been followed, understand and accepted by the >10 interested workers in the cam dept here.

sad, as c.coms others forums are well maintained.

however, nothing new. we saw the same when DAW killed multitrackrecorders in the sound dept, when laser/ink printers made the lead obsolete, when flae & quantel obsoleted the optical copier etc.

i think c.com will be a functional forum for the red in ~36 months and then people who know and own the camera will be the majority on these boards - or they will suffocate.

i think c.com might become a valuable source of information for 3D, stereoscopic, digital, di, as well as raw within the next 36 months, until then, as said before - its a waste of time due to poor moderation and 4-8 non-banned trolls.
 
Nowhere in that thread is there any support for the claim that 'monstro' is a banned word at C.com.
 
Cristina said:
http://www.cinematography.com/index.php?showtopic=32103&hl=
Click to expand...

lol... I smell fear

fear that customers won't notice how gorgeous highlights look on film, that they might not see the spectacular color rendition, especially after we get even higher bit depth

fear that JJ ain't messing around like they pray for every night, fear that in a year or two we'll have dual octo cores on set for under $4,000 processing dailies with even better free software, that in just two years you might get an enclosure with hardware RAID-5 with 10TB for a little over $1,000... better yet, that there may be a break through in highlight handling, or noise levels, that we'll have insane amounts of dynamic range... blow the doors off sensitivity standards...

ok, I know... I am sorry, but some of those f'ing comments were condescending, and due to my very own insecurities (boys can be the better man, humble) I let them piss me off just a tad... enough to have some fun posting this, mainly to amuse myself...

film is gorgeous, just gorgeous... and if you don't know that you don't know jack

also if you think Jannard is a fake you... well there is nothing that could paint that picture that wouldn't be borderline offensive

:calm:
 
another thing to consider: every evolution has to leave loosers, and in the internet age these will have an own forum.
 
dsheehy said:
Nowhere in that thread is there any support for the claim that 'monstro' is a banned word at C.com.
Click to expand...
dude.. forbidden is a thrash metal band from the Bay Area thrash scene.. or a 1932 melodrama starring Barbara Stanwyck..
 
I was quite impressed to read the equipment list on a commercial shot here locally in Cape Town - it used the RED One Digital Cinema Camera - hired from RED One Africa. Very cool. I gotta get myself close to one of those shoots.
 
Jose Alvarez said:
I love RED functionality and the "RED Look", but if I could shoot film for the same price I can shoot RED, I would choose film every time! That's my opinion in a nutshell.
Click to expand...

My thought exactly. Another thing is sheer smaller size. You can do things with a Red that don't seem easy with a Genesis
 
It is all about the Jannard Oakley look for me... I don't care about the image... pff... who cares if you can snowboard so long as you look rad while falling...
 
laguun said:
c.coms red forum is just a waste of time.

incompetent moderators and posters have given this usually interesting source of information a bad name.
.
Click to expand...

Hi Jan,

Comming from you that's a compliment.

Best,

Stephen
 
This is doing nothing to bridge the gap between the two forums. It's very counterproductive.

I don't understand why it's so difficult to see that film and digital co-exist right now and are used when appropriate, sometimes both being used on the same project. Until there is no longer a need for film, we should respect it. And to that point, the members of the c.com and Reduser communities should respect each other and the opinions that are put forth. It frustrates me to see people sink to such low levels to prove themselves right or to attack a camera company with such disdain.

I encourage people who frequent all of these forums to think before you write, have respect for the film/video profession, and most of all have respect for your fellow human beings.
 
Bear in mind the no 1 poster of all time @.com is David Mullen ASC.

stevesherrick said:
This is doing nothing to bridge the gap between the two forums. It's very counterproductive.

I don't understand why it's so difficult to see that film and digital co-exist right now and are used when appropriate, sometimes both being used on the same project. Until there is no longer a need for film, we should respect it. And to that point, the members of the c.com and Reduser communities should respect each other and the opinions that are put forth. It frustrates me to see people sink to such low levels to prove themselves right or to attack a camera company with such disdain.

I encourage people who frequent all of these forums to think before you write, have respect for the film/video profession, and most of all have respect for your fellow human beings.
Click to expand...
 
laguun said:
.....

i think c.com will be a functional forum for the red in ~36 months and then people who know and own the camera will be the majority on these boards - or they will suffocate.

.......
Click to expand...

This, I think, represents part of the disconnect between attitudes. Certainly the Red camera has pushed the owner / operator model, but most of the business still relies on very talented people who rent gear. Owning a camera was never correlated with one's ability to engage the discussion, nor did it represent their prowess with the camera.

Would you tell David Mullen he can't speak about film cameras because he doesn't own one. Would you not hire a talented DOP because he hasn't purchased the camera?

How many HD shooters didn't own a Sony 900, but they still had opinions about it. The Red's price-point has changed that, but it doesn't render the rest of the business obsolete. Otherwise, big rental houses wouldn't buy a dozen Red bodies each.

Reduser is populated with owner/operators, c.com has more from the -- get hired and shoot the camera package provided.

This board celebrates when a big budget Hollywood film uses the Red, but I bet most of the cameras used came from a rental house and were not owned by the DOP on the film.

Would we enjoy feedback from the DOP from those big budget films?.... well actually now thinking about it, they're more likely to be chased away from here. :)
 
Stephen Williams said:
Bear in mind the no 1 poster of all time @.com is David Mullen ASC.
Click to expand...

And David brings a lot of good will to both forums. I am speaking to those who take a different approach. I don't always agree with you Stephen, but I respect your work, and I respect your opinions. What I am referring to is disrespectful comments that have shown up on both forums. They go beyond opinion, beyond healthy debate.
 
David made a good point earlier in the thread. It's one thing to be a trash talker who can back up his words with great skill and knowledge. It's another to be a trash talker who doesn't know squat about actual filmmaking.

Stephen Williams, for example, is a guy who ruffles feathers sometimes, but at the same time, he has some awesome stuff in his reel to back it up. Many of the most vocal trash talkers at c.com (and they are the small minority there) really seem clueless about actual filmmaking.

Another strange thing from what David posted about the history of c.com is, why on earth would someone want to troll there? I can imagine someone getting their kicks trolling Rosie O'Donnell's blog, or maybe trolling some right-wing or left-wing forums, but a camera forum? I mean come on... Get a life!
 
Ownership brings with it a certain intimate working knowledge of a particular camera, which is highly valuable on a users forum... but it doesn't necessarily ensure impartiality or a open, honest opinion since there is a conflict of interest -- the person's livelihood is wrapped up with the rental of that camera (or cameras.)

This is one reason why a diversity of opinion is valuable in order to get an accurate picture of the situation. And sometimes those opinions are contradictory, and not necessarily because one person is wrong and the other person is right, but because experiences can vary.

This is nothing new either -- for decades, I've had people complain to me about Fuji film stock going green and grainy, yet I've shot dozens of features on Fuji and never had a problem like that -- but that doesn't mean those other people were misreporting their problem.

And look at lenses, one person will make claims that Cooke S4's are better than any other lens for flares, and the next person will complain about the flares from a Cooke S4... and both can point to tests or footage that can back up their claims.

Over at C.Com, Adam Frisch, a highly-skilled cinematographer who shoots beautiful work, and has always been a highly detail-oriented and somewhat picky person about everything, lights, lenses, whatever, made some complaints about the RED camera after shooting a number of music videos on it. His experiences don't match my own, but that doesn't mean he isn't telling the truth, it's just from his perspective and wrapped up in his tastes. He mentioned that his camera had an overheating problem, something that I've heard from other people. He mentioned some clipping problems, which is also something other people have mentioned.

Then someone from RedUser shows up yesterday and basically says that Adam should pay for damaging the RED he rented because there was no reason for the camera to overheat, and implied that he wasn't a competent DP because he could expose the RED properly.

Well, that sort of hostile attitude towards any negative report doesn't do much to improve the tone of a debate.

If you have a different experience, then just report it. If you have a reasonable explanation that doesn't involve insulting the person experiencing problems, then say that. If you can't explain their problems, then say that. If you disagree with someone's aesthetic judgments about the image, then say that.

But don't start accusing them of incompetence, especially not an experienced working professional. It especially doesn't make a whole lot of sense for a RED rental house to start insulting working cinematographers out there because those cinematographers -- all of whom will probably need to rent a RED camera at some point -- are going to make a point of avoiding that company like the plague.
 
Peace in our time

Peace in our time

I hate this thread. It seems like this conversation comes up on a monthly basis.

C.com is what it is because the people who run it like that way. That's fine. You can join in or not. I may not be wild about it, but that cause I'm wired different, not cause I think they are all losers, in fact, as Stephen said, I met David there.

Why do so many feel that in order for us to be right, someone else MUST be wrong!?

We have chosen to drink the RED Kool-Aid. We believe not only in the product, but the beliefs behind it. However I would like to think of us as an INCLUSIVE group, not an EXCLUSIVE one.

There are many religions out there who not only profess a belief in God, but a commandment that states to believe in anything else is a sin. And those who would profess a different belief are evil, or truely stupid for "not seeing the light". It is this mindset that causes wars, misunderstandings, and a whole lot of pain.

If people are serious about moving us forward as a race, then we need to learn the skill of understanding, respect, and empathy.

It's much harder than spouting off how right you are, and how wrong everything else is, but the payoffs in the future are 10 fold.

Look at it from a business perspective: How many of you would NOT want to work with David Mullen at some point in the future?

How he presents himself is a direct result of this. Then his body of work would close the door (Provided you liked his style). Perhaps David learned in his years that you never know when the next job is coming, and more importantly, you never know where it will come from.

In our industry we're always on the stage. We are evaluated not only by our work, but how we present ourselves. A negative post can burn the bridge of not only who you attack, but by potential clients as yet unknown who are turned off by the fact that you would attack at all.

Jay
 
David Mullen ASC said:
Over at C.Com, Adam Frisch, a highly-skilled cinematographer who shoots beautiful work, and has always been a highly detail-oriented and somewhat picky person about everything, lights, lenses, whatever, made some complaints about the RED camera after shooting a number of music videos on it. His experiences don't match my own, but that doesn't mean he isn't telling the truth, it's just from his perspective and wrapped up in his tastes. He mentioned that his camera had an overheating problem, something that I've heard from other people. He mentioned some clipping problems, which is also something other people have mentioned.

Then someone from RedUser shows up yesterday and basically says that Adam should pay for damaging the RED he rented because there was no reason for the camera to overheat, and implied that he wasn't a competent DP because he could expose the RED properly.
Click to expand...


Hahahaha to my surprise I get to read his name on reduser. I happen to know him and he's a very nice guy.

To Red's defense I know he's a film snob, but to his defense David is right. He's a highly skilled and experienced DOP.

My guess is that he run into some problems like we all do but he got more annoyed then some of us because of his already reluctance towards RED.

No matter what I agree with David we have to allow criticism no matter how harsh it may seem. I love my RED's but there's flaws as well and I find myself shooting 50/50 now between RED and 35mm. I thought RED would have taken over by now but not yet.

As for cinematography.com I registered and spent one afternoon in there and then I realized there's only one site to rely on and that one ends with .net.

The C.com felt like it would be a reduser wannabie C.net version and that was all IMHO screwed up. To many who had an opinion about something they had not one single clue about. On reduser we all share not having a clue about our new camera and it's format :tongue:
 
The RED camera is a big success, so I think some of you guys can be less defensive whenever someone has a criticism of it. If you think they are using it incorrectly, then educate them politely, whether or not they were polite.

No camera or system is flawless or has no room for improvement. If the criticism has some ring of truth to it, no doubt the people at RED are addressing the problem in some manner.

RedUser is naturally going to gather people who are positive about the RED; a general cinematography site is more likely to have a wider range of opinions, some completely hostile to digital in general. I personally think that attitude is rather impractical, to say the least, but people have their particular passions that govern them and some can indulge them more than others.
 
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