RED at Warner Bros.

[Andrew Walker]

Gdv, for someone that owes two cameras you sound very negative about them. Also why would you throw away the movies that Soderbergh is doing on Red as proof of the cameras being used on big feature films. Its still a feature film and it looks amazing. Personally I could give a crap if big productions use the camera. I like to use the camera for my projects and other peoples' projects I work on because it produces amazing images...that's if the people shooting know how to use it correctly.

BTW who cares if the cameras come from Clairmont cameras, Otto Nemenz and Movietech. If it comes from me or from some other Red owners is it still not just a camera. I realize that there might be some amazing level of support with those rental houses. But there's already a great support center here and at Red.

 

[Casey Green]

Frankly, I see someone posting an image and then a few responses like "wow' "amazing" but the real test will be to see some big feature films being shot with it. I am not counting those about Che since its was part of a try out.
I want to see it going out for 12 weeks feature film from Clairmont cameras, Otto Nemenz, Movietech and others.
Film was perfect but the nature of the human being is to invent some new technology which intercept the old one.
I accept that and that is why I already have two Reds though I would rather stay with film.
When I look at the Red packages I received, I see the "toy for kids" concept there. The top mounts, for example, had the tightening screws packed separately like lets give the kids the lego experience to assemble them by themselves. These tightening screws got no where to be but at the top mount so why couldn't be there already. it is also the "Ikea" concept.
I have Reds and I hope the cameras will do the jobs, so far we only have producer going back to Sony 900 and alike. As for toys post n the other hand is too complicated and expensive.

I will be happy to purchase your "toys" from you and make Professional Productions with them. Please PM me your prices, I expect you will be selling cheap, since you have not been able to convince any Producers to use your brand new 4K Cinema Camera over an 8 year old HD Camera.

I hope to hear from you soon!

By the way, I always loved legos.

Thank you.

 

[Jargon Ent.]

The studios shut down their camera departments years ago, so they'd have to make a major change in policy if they got back into the camera ownership model. To support their productions, they'd need a lot of cameras and tech support, and thus a department to handle them, and the overhead involved... which was one of the reasons they got rid of the camera departments.

It is more likely that the individual production companies shooting things for studios would be the ones to buy some RED's for the run of the show.

No argument there. I totally agree. And thank you for your input. It is always appreciated having an educated opinion here. All I was trying to do was to back up the statement that the studios are looking at RED as a viable option as we have been involved personally with tests and Q & A sessions dealing with post and archiving footage, all the way down to converting camera trucks over to handle a RED show. The studios are looking to make some changes. What direction that is going to be, I don't know. We will all have to wait and see. What I do know is that several studios are going to use 2008 as a testing period in TV with some pilots being totally done on RED and some doing side by side with their current workflow which we have already been a part of. Then from what I've been told 2009 will see several shows convert over to RED. I'm sure Jim knows much more and is unable to say.

 

[Jargon Ent.]

Frankly, I see someone posting an image and then a few responses like "wow' "amazing" but the real test will be to see some big feature films being shot with it. I am not counting those about Che since its was part of a try out.
I want to see it going out for 12 weeks feature film from Clairmont cameras, Otto Nemenz, Movietech and others.
Film was perfect but the nature of the human being is to invent some new technology which intercept the old one.
I accept that and that is why I already have two Reds though I would rather stay with film.
When I look at the Red packages I received, I see the "toy for kids" concept there. The top mounts, for example, had the tightening screws packed separately like lets give the kids the lego experience to assemble them by themselves. These tightening screws got no where to be but at the top mount so why couldn't be there already. it is also the "Ikea" concept.
I have Reds and I hope the cameras will do the jobs, so far we only have producer going back to Sony 900 and alike. As for toys post n the other hand is too complicated and expensive.

I'm sorry that you have not had much success. I don't see many of the big camera houses moving to RED anytime soon. They are way too invested in the other more costly formats. They would take a huge hit if all of that inventory just started sitting on the shelf. I think you can find RED cameras at several other quality camera houses like Hollywood Camera, The Camera House and several others. These are places that all handle major features and TV series. I'm sure there are several more that I am forgetting. It all comes down to money. I worked at a post house for three years recently and their tape budget was over $300,000 a month. I don't think Sony wants them to move to a tape less environment anytime soon. I hope that you find success in the future. I know that this summer looks good so maybe you can start winning over some producers. A DP friend of mine who has done over 25 feature films has just added some RED shots to his reel. He offers the producers $100 if they can pick the RED shots from the film shots. When they can't they are sold immediately. He has gotten two features by that method. Maybe you can give it a try. Good luck.

 

[Michel Hafner]

Film was perfect but the nature of the human being is to invent some new technology which intercept the old one..

FIlm was never perfect, is not perfect and will never be perfect. Film and digital have both their limitations.

 

[Adam Levins]

When I look at the Red packages I received, I see the "toy for kids" concept there. The top mounts, for example, had the tightening screws packed separately like lets give the kids the lego experience to assemble them by themselves. These tightening screws got no where to be but at the top mount so why couldn't be there already. it is also the "Ikea" concept.

What a bazaar analogy... you might be reading into the packaging a bit too much.

One of the best bits of footage I have seen so far is this: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=13683

But I do think that the less paper and plastic used the better for the environment.

 

[jcirbes]

Not starting a war here but it is clear you do not know how studios work. Warner Bros. owns all of their own equipment. From grip and lighting to trucks, tvs, playback equipment, to sound equipment, etc. When you do a show for them, you have to order all of your equipment through them. You can only get stuff from other vendors if they do not have it or if they are out of stock. Do I see them using some guy out of his garage. No. I see them buying camera bodies and renting the rest. And yes the $18,000 figure was for everything, but if you got a similiar package for the RED it would be about half the cost. You don't have to argue with me, the executive producer was the one raving about the costs. And if saving several million per show was just peanuts then production wouldn't be going to other states or countries to save a couple of hundred thousand.

just finished a Warner Bros. show...we used 2 F23 & 2 F900r from a rental house (VER), sound used his pkg., lighting & grip from CSC...

 

[David Mullen ASC]

I did a Warner Bros. feature and it was all traditionally rented equipment from private camera, grip, electric houses, etc. not in-house. But this was not shot on the Warner stages, it was a location shoot.

They do have a policy of no "kit rental" from individual crew members, just rental houses.

 

[Joel Kaye]

They do have a policy of no "kit rental" from individual crew members, just rental houses.

That makes pretty good sense in a bigger system. Probably avoids some fraud.

It's interesting that the studios are looking at RED in any way given they are comfortable with film. But to me the more relevant question is will they distribute indie pictures shots on RED as readily as they will film. I'm guessing "yes" is the answer to that. And will consumers accept pictures shot on RED in the same way they accept pictures shot on film? Again, I'd have to guess "yes". And will DP's and posthouses want to deal with RED? Some yes, some no.

Clearly RED has become a viable alternative for a lot of producers and distributors already. If or when big Hollywood shoots on RED is a bit of a curiosity but I personally don't see that it matters much. I'd fully expect them to hang onto film until some other system delivers a complete and total knockout blow. Might not happen for years. Perhaps when digital delivery and projection truly arrive.

 

[D Namir]

Sorry to call you out... what serial numbers do you have?

Jim

I have #1672 & #1674 but I am involved with the Red cameras in my area from the time the first arrived.
I am still waiting for these cameras to break the ice.
When producers see how much time and money it takes to edit and post the data they ask why 4K? when you suggest 2K they have the Sony F900 which all the post houses are familiar with.
Every now and then I hear of a feature film that is going to start with the Red and just before shooting they go to "Old HD".
I do think its a cute camera with a great image and a user friendly interface. I am in this business since the Arriflex BLII and have seen a lot. I guess part of the problem is adjusting to the idea that these old incredible machines I have worked all my life with, like Photosonics 4B, that reach 1000 frames and even 2500 fps, Moviecam, Panavision, are now being sold at an internet store and then doesn't pass the post issue and we go back to Sony F900 which I never liked especially the R.

 

[Finner]

Have to agree with your post issues gdv. Red has done such a great job of putting together the camera but unfortunately post is such a mess that many producers are running from any thoughts of of using red.

I will be taking delivery of my camera in the next 2-3 weeks but with current producers responses to red post I am not expecting a ton of rentals. With current producers hesitance to shooting red I probably will continue with mainly film and HD camera shoots until reasonable post solutions are out. It is unfortunate but seems to be the reality of the current situation.

 

[David Mullen ASC]

With so many people shooting on the RED, more and more post solutions will be appearing on the market.

 

[Mike Prevette]

When producers see how much time and money it takes to edit and post the data they ask why 4K? when you suggest 2K they have the Sony F900 which all the post houses are familiar with.

Sounds EXACTLY like it did 8 years ago when HD started to make a in-roads into the commercial and film market. At first producers thought they were getting a deal, but quickly the highercost of HD post ate up all the savings. It took at least 5 years for this to even out. So many people got burned by this, that they are skittish of this new wave.

The truth is if your smart Redpost is much cheaper than just about any comparable format. It just takes some research.

 

[Sean R.]

A brilliant comparison Mike. That type of mind-set keeps things in perspective for me and influenced foresight makes me want to pop a wheelie...
The workflow is one of the most exciting things about RED to me. We don't have to follow the same path. We've all seen where that path leads to. All those ready to blaze a trail, we're are going to create a whole other level.

 

[Finner]

The truth is if your smart Redpost is much cheaper than just about any comparable format. It just takes some research.

Unfortunately the truth is this is dead wrong. I have worked with many post houses with red footage and there is nothing simple or cheap about red post. This is with highly qualified editors that are very smart and are very knowledgeable pro's.

 

[Lucas Wilson]

Have to agree with your post issues gdv. Red has done such a great job of putting together the camera but unfortunately post is such a mess that many producers are running from any thoughts of of using red.

RED Post is a lot like film post in many ways. If you've worked on post-production on a 35mm project, you know that there are a wonderful myriad of different techniques for screwing things up so as to make life for post absolutely miserable. But there are rules. Follow the rules, and things go very smoothly.

The same is true for RED. Lots of ways to totally screw things up. But there are rules. Follow the rules, and things are easy and straightforward.

RED suffers from what any truly new paradigm suffers - more people are out there who do not know what they're doing then who do. And there is a lot of crap flying around because of that. That's to be expected.

Great example - last week, I was on the set of a big sci-fi show in Vancouver. The DoP was very against RED because he had heard from people he trusted that the workflow was a mess, impossible to work with, etc, etc. I took 10 minutes and showed him REDCINE and the FCP -> SCRATCH combo. He was amazed, and basically pulled out his phone, called the guys who told him the workflow was crap and gave them an earful. He is now going to be shooting RED tests for his next show.

RED post is not a mess. When done right, it is very elegant... and *much* cheaper than a comparable film process. I can point to dozens of facilities worldwide that are cranking through RED Dailies and RED projects...

If you'd like to set up a visit at a few facilities that are doing it right so you can get an unbiased opinion from people whose jobs depend on things going smoothly, contact me offlist.

Best,

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, inc.
LA, CA, USA

 

[Lucas Wilson]

Unfortunately the truth is this is dead wrong. I have worked with many post houses with red footage and there is nothing simple or cheap about red post. This is with highly qualified editors that are very smart and are very knowledgeable pro's.

I'll match your highly qualified editors with several facilities I can name off the top of my head that are doing RED post every day, making money from it, and who can back up with hard numbers the fact that it is much cheaper on many levels than a lot of traditional workflows.

The workflow being "expensive" and "hard" and "difficult to manage" is just FUD from people who haven't figured it out.

Lucas

 

[David Battistella]

This is an interesting thread. It will be interesting to look at this thread about 30-60 days after the SDK is released. It think that most of what is being discussed will be moot by then.

Every company wants this SDK in their hands because they understand a fundamental thing. Their customers will want to access r3d footage within their preferred editing/compositing or post application.

I can't wait because it's going to be fascinating to see what a company like Adobe does or what AVID will do, or any host of other high end DI applications. Just look at what Cineform has done WITHOUT the SDK.

We are at the same point now with Digital film as Photography was with the advent of Digital SLR. film hung in for a while, but working Pro's have embraced Digital Photography.

Nobody has a problem with an audio guy coming onto the set with a Hard drive recorder or a DIVA. Same will be true for RED.

Post works NOW with a careful and knowledgable approach. Is it different? (not much different than p2) but with all of the advantages of film.

I would venture a guess that the most nervous producers may not have yet spoken to the most knowledgeable people.

I have noticed that the RED has created two camps with the producer set. I call them the EMBRACERS (the open minded people who like technology, embrace change and see what RED has created) and the REJECTERS (the people who are very scared, don't like anything that is not on tape or film, and aren't ready for the change.

My view is this, both sides will end up using RED, one will just adopt it sooner and will be that much further ahead.

Cheers,

David

 

[Andrew Walker]

This is what I love about this forum, the people that don't have cameras yet are the ones talking trash and that ones that have cameras are holding their hands through this obviously difficult process for them.

Every single negative comment that I've heard about the Red camera has been by people that A: Don't have the camera but claim to have worked with it a lot to know how to use it properly. B: Ass bags floating around here saying that the camera is difficult to deal with and that post is a nightmare.

The camera produces amazing images if its being used by people that know what they are doing. As for post, if I can sit at home and cut footage together and deliver a finished product I don't see what the problem is. Someone I talked to at work that was doing some Red bashing was saying that there are all these problems in post with that camera. I asked like what and what it boiled down was that people working on a production weren't talking to each other. From production to post to VFX they just couldn't tell them what the file format was and what to do with it. Its just stupid to think that all this bitching about this camera's post workflow is because people cannot communicate. But that's the film industry.

 

[Lucas Wilson]

"Ass bag"... That's just classic.