Red Android product?

[Wayne Morellini]

I was thinking of a new cheap product for viewing, camera control, information management, on set equipment control, focus/color pulling, sound recording, and even editing Red footage, and also backup.

A quality android tablet could be made with a manufacturing partner. It would be a mass market item to keep down the costs, but be high spec and have a top end embedded GPU for the processing of the footage (Imagination technologies). The manufacturing partner would bring their expertise and bear much of the cost, and profit, for this license.

Android is the google operating system for phones and other consumer devices, which is being used in Tablets (flat touch screen computers) to compete with Apples IPad at the moment. It is based on a Linux kernel with a Java like system built on top, but does have native code access, luckily.

Embedded GPU's, are graphics processing units, that can now be programmed to run programs more like a normal microprocessor, but much much faster. This now allows some of the units to do very sophisticated processing, which helps in what we need to do.​

The product would incorporate all the current cheap to implement video/camera interfaces, and have an optional expansion for the more expensive ones to keep costs down.


It would be targeted at the normal market, but also at video/camera professionals and armatures as the only preferred choice.

Users would be able to live view, review, camera control, and even edit (an external display hookup might be useful) which might also be restrictive due to processor power. The editing is mainly a infield item (using zoom to check focus/problems) for TV professionals doing dailies, reporting or blogging. Through optional modules footage could be sent via 3G/4G satellite back to main base. The size would obviously be 9+ inches. 7 inch is possible, but to be expected to be low quality.

The cameras in the unit would allow it to be used as a low end camera in it's own right.


The screen, preferable OLED for good color and viewing angle, but practically maybe something else.


The price, preferably below $1000.

There are many questions, and many answers about how this would work, so bear with it.


I was aiming to draw up a little red android logo, "RED" in the upper corner, and a red android to the lower right for fun, but it is getting on. The normal android's icons name is "Andy" I hear, but we'll refrain from calling the red version 'Randy'.


Well, Jim, a bit late for Christmas, but does it sound interesting?


Thanks

Wayne.


re-edit:

Control:

Various jobs need information and job management. Tablet and hand held computers are good for this, though many pocket or 7 inch. The machines could also be sued for other function and to control equipment, as re-edited into the top line.

Screens:

Have been over looking at the attachable view/camera control screens for the cameras, lower res 7 inch and under, expensive, these could be replaced by mass produced Red android units, "Your friendly friend". For low end people it is a good add on.


4K-8K viewing solution:

Even though anything past 1080p/2K might be unpractical on a 9 inch screen, I have come up with a solution for the future (present HDMI only supports slow SHD modes). A plug in head mounted display, monocle or glasses type, presenting a 200 inch screen, using cheaper to make micro-displays (I did say future, future editions of the tablets, before micro-displays reach this level cheaply). To review footage in 3-8K the device would be plugged into the external display port. When such a port becomes consumer, it should become cheaper (2015+).

Anybody keeping up with the latest trends, would know that Intel has been holding off with USB 3 support, to implement it's own 100Gb/s cheap consumer optical I/O interface. It is designed to transport other protocols such as HDMI sata etc, over the one cheap port, so is a good candidate for a future 8K video port (eventually). Initial slower versions due shortly. Also I assume Intel, that made a breakthrough in silicon lasers a few years ago, and others are to introduce optical computing in coming years promising hundreds or thousands of times speed increase with minimal power. So we are probably headed towards a tablet computer able to process and edit 3D 8K raw footage (though advances in storage and memory technology is another hurdle for storage/ editing). I even have being coming up with some cheap simpler designs for optical processing and memory myself.


Re-edit:

I have discovered a possible solution released late 2010:

Believe or not, it is an Android OS app running advanced camera platform that has GPU (don't know if it is a fast model or not), has there own advanced video processing array (don't know if that can be customized for Redcode or redray) and will do 32mp stills, and 5mp video in the current version (I expect shd/4K end of this year release, if not into next year). I understand that some top tier manufacturers might be using ambarella technology in the better h264 encoding camera in recent years. They win many awards. This allows low end manufacturers to use a first rate chip set without spending 100 million to develop it and make it.

http://image-sensors-world.blogspot.com/2010/12/ambarella-ione-supports-32mp-imaging-on.html

 

[paulherrin]

i'm sorry man, but there's no way you could build something with specs like that demands in the present day and charge less than $1000

look at the cost of a RED rocket, and it's not unreasonable. this tablet would need a smaller, more powerful version of that for a gpu. then you've still got everything else to worry about, like the 16 processors.

get a really good laptop, or better yet a workstation. you can use a laptop or tablet for monitoring (or... a monitor), but why in the world would you consider sitting on set editing on a little 9 inch tablet?

 

[Wayne Morellini]

Sorry that you do not know. I admit it is not a $80 ebay android tablet, or the rumored up and coming similarly powered PSP2.

 

[paulherrin]

go ahead and build it man, i'm sorry i don't know either.

 

[Wayne Morellini]

I'm not a manufacturing partner. But an android tablet for more than a $1000 would be considered expensive for a tablet. I think I can get 9 inch low powered android tablets on ebay for less than $200.

The PSP2 is rumored to be using the latest high end Imaginations Technologies design, and you can guess the price of their unit will not even be near $500. This gives a bit of an idea.

What a manufacturer would do is base it on one of the existing top end designs, adding in the extra components and GPU, no mean feat in it's own right. You have to program this, which is harder, unless you have existing code. For many of the existing video playback processing functions, and some other consumer, code is already available (many video products use versions of the processing systems used in the android products. So, much of the additional programming is Red format specific (and maybe portable to some extent, if done on open standards, from existing GPU processing efforts) and ingressing footage through the video interfaces.

The cost to produce the the units would be similar to standard tablets + the higher spec, because it is very similar to a standard tablet + the higher spec, and only includes cheap to implement interfaces and telecommunication options. You pay extra for the more expensive interface and telecommunication modules.

The cheaper interfaces should be a moderate cost. The extra processing/memory/GPU and screen are expensive items (plus I hope that a very hefty battery can fit in) so I did not say $500-$600. We are also forecasting into 2012/late 2011) by the time it could be manufactured (and that would be quick, given an exciting design and manufacturer to base it on, now), which will see price drops in some of the items. A quicker version could be done quicker if you got an existing advanced design and just re-badged it, wrote software and used existing USB 2.0/3.0 interface converter, and telecommunications, dongles.

I forgot to mention it's use as a backup product.

 

[Wayne Morellini]

i'm sorry man, but there's no way you could build something with specs like that demands in the present day and charge less than $1000

look at the cost of a RED rocket, and it's not unreasonable. this tablet would need a smaller, more powerful version of that for a gpu. then you've still got everything else to worry about, like the 16 processors.

get a really good laptop, or better yet a workstation. you can use a laptop or tablet for monitoring (or... a monitor), but why in the world would you consider sitting on set editing on a little 9 inch tablet?

Sorry, did not see the re-edit on your post. I could get into justification for not doing things the way red has done them, but I don;t want to. PC programming is usually not a good indicator of processing power needed. CPU processing is also not the best indicator of what a GPU can do. I would have to look up how much of a GPU is being used to provide non real-time editing, or viewing. We could be talking about how long a piece of string is, depending on how it was done, different features, and how well. We are also talking about desktop GPU power being shrunk to embedded over time, red rocket processing power eventually theoretically becoming tablet GPU processing power.

About using it on "set". Of course we are not talking about top end here, we are talking fixed lens scarlet territory, so depends on the set. We are also talking about mostly a lot of non-set low end work.

If you can imagine how to use it in a day, you can try it. It is not meant to do everything for all occasions.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

For offline edits, it could pull it off.
For backups... Well... You couldn't shoot a lot in a day...

But I cannot really see that these are tasks where a tablet would be a better option than a laptop.

How do you imagine that?

(Just curious here)

I really like the tablet as a multi-device, but not as a laptop...

 

[Wayne Morellini]

I have not been keeping up with red rocket, as I thought it was based on a Nvidia GPU processing platform instead of using a regular graphics card, and I turned off of it. GPU processing platforms are known for being pretty high end in terms of power, compared to alternatives. I do not know which alternative is packaged into the unit, but unless you want lower power consumption (important for packing many units into one case) it is likely to be somewhere in between the CPU's and a good GPU card. Give me a amount and speed of cpu's and I might have a better estimate. So, Red related GPU processing might be another programming hurdle.

I thought it strange, as I would not have thought that 4K red would require more than a fraction of a top end GPU, but knowing the efficiency of high end programmers, I could believe it would require much more. But we are concentration on playback for realtime, so much less again.

My apologies.


Screens:

Have been over looking at the attachable view/camera control screens for the cameras, lower res 7 inch and under, expensive, these could be replaced by mass produced Red android units, "Your friendly friend". For low end people it is a good add on.


Viewing:

Ive been very sick today and forgot another feature I came up with yesterday, 4-8K viewing. Even though anything past 1080p/2K might be unpractical on a 9 inch screen, I have come up with a solution for the future (present HDMI only supports slow SHD modes). A plug in head mounted display, monocle or glasses type presenting a 200 inch screen using cheaper to make micro-displays (I did say future, future editions of the tablets, before micro-displays reach this level cheaply). To review footage in 3-8K the device would be plugged into the external display port. When such a port becomes consumer, it should become cheaper (2015+). Anybody keeping up with the latest trends, would know that Intel has been holding off with USB 3 support, to implement it's own 100Gb/s cheap consumer optical I/O interface. It is designed to transport other protocols such as HDMI sata etc, over the one cheap port, so is a good candidate for a 8K port. Initial slower versions due shortly, I hope at Macworld (s a conveniently soon time slot b before the next Mac time slot months latter). Also I assume Intel, that made a breakthrough in silicon lasers a few years ago, and others are to introduce optical computing in coming years promising hundreds or thousands of times speed increase with minimal power. So we are probably headed towards a tablet computer able to process and edit 3D 8K raw footage (though advances in storage and memory technology is another hurdle for storage/ editing). I even have being coming up with some cheap simpler designs for optical processing and memory myself.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

RedRocket is not GPU.
It's currently basically performing debayering in realtime.

But I guess - from what you wrote, that you had that right, now...

Still curious as to how you think a tablet will be more practical than a laptop for these tasks.

I don't walk out without 2 x 24" + an SDI monitor, and really don't feel like losing any screen estate on set...

Edit;
Actually exaggerating a bit. After getting the Dreamcolor, it can serve as both SDI and DVI monitor...

Still just curious...

 

[Wayne Morellini]

For offline edits, it could pull it off.
For backups... Well... You couldn't shoot a lot in a day...

But I cannot really see that these are tasks where a tablet would be a better option than a laptop.

How do you imagine that?

(Just curious here)

I really like the tablet as a multi-device, but not as a laptop...

It wont suit all uses, and is aimed at low end.

I imagine 1TB drives (talking about 2012+ release here), to suite until you get back to base. How much does a 3K Scarlet consume per-second, we didn't get an answer years ago?

Most sales should be to serious consumer/prosumer and other professional camera owners (not counting those people that want a deluxe tablet). They can easily backup their sub 100mb/s footage and review it etc. For computer people it is actually a neat product to go with their cameras as well.

In the low, non cinema, end you can be on the move. A laptop is not so portable outside of base. You can literally be wondering the country side. It can be carried by carry strap, opened, held and operated a lot easier than a laptop. In industry tablets and other hand held computers are used on job for this reason. Video Journalist, newspaper, documentary, and even news is where this might benefit more. A shoestring budget privately owned fixed scarlet production might like a few, one as on camera control viewing screen, another for director/information organization. It is also a organization tool for the day, various jobs and their applets (many jobs though would suite pocket or 7 inch versions). Most sales of fixed scarlet and Red android should be to non-cinema users, most of those sales should be to non red owners as a premier device.

Apart from the information management on different jobs, I should illustrate how it could be used for controls. You could use one to control sound, one for lighting, one for suggested color pulling, you name it, if you can use it practically for your crew size and set, then an application could be eventually developed for it (i.e. over time by third parties probably).

Thanks Gunleik


Wayne.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

There are a variety of apps in development for all the Scripting and organizing tasks. iPad apps, that is. I have seen a couple, and they can get very good...

That's for all the database-like tasks, not actually editing.

I know I am probably the "Cinematic" user you refer to (doing a lot of TV-drama, though...), but I think it would be good to be aware of that.

For debayering in realtime, you'll need horsepower, for editing I do feel like having more screen areal, but for anything organizing-like and preview of rushes etc I think the tablets have their place.

Just checking so that you don't unknowingly put a lot of effort into a product where others already have a couple of years headstart...

One thing i tink is worth mentioning, is that the RED cameras ARE actually "Cinematic" products, whatever you choose to use them for.
And many of the surprises people have had with the R1, stems from people NOT realising that.

It is in other words not neccesarily a solution that makes for a happy customer to try to defeat gravity...

 

[Wayne Morellini]

Edit;
Actually exaggerating a bit. After getting the Dreamcolor, it can serve as both SDI and DVI monitor...

Still just curious...

That I can respect, somebody that corrects themselves around here, and is genuinely curious. We get too many buffoons on web forums that just jump in, jump all over you, without thinking and then demand that they are right and you justify yourself, just because they didn't bother to read and understand what they read in the first place. The noise of trying to explain things to intentionally compromised irrational people over and over is deafening. At least this thread seems ok.

 

[Wayne Morellini]

There are a variety of apps in development for all the Scripting and organizing tasks. iPad apps, that is. I have seen a couple, and they can get very good...

I know, people probably wondered what I was going on about when I suggested the use of the Iphone/itouch years ago. Too me it is obvious, desirable, practical to do, but most people only understand what they have already experienced, for me that is a lot as I design and experience before it is. My suggestion for the Android, is an alternative, that it is a more open system, and maybe more controllable and exploitable in that way.

I know I am probably the "Cinematic" user you refer to (doing a lot of TV-drama, though...), but I think it would be good to be aware of that.

You are right, that is in between and I should have said high end production and cinematic. Where cost is of little objection, rather than crucial, it matters less. Buy/rent the more expensive equipment and get on with it.

For debayering in realtime, you'll need horsepower, for editing I do feel like having more screen areal, but for anything organizing-like and preview of rushes etc I think the tablets have their place.

Yes really lower end bottom feeder territory the tablets. Debayering, it depends on the method. A very complex method would require many times more than past complex methods. However, for simple viewing and simple 3k/4k editing (leaving in the raw format until latter) less complex debayering should be sufficient and well within the systems grasp.

Just checking so that you don't unknowingly put a lot of effort into a product where others already have a couple of years headstart...

No, this is not something I would do (not that I couldn't do a software version) but a suggestion for a Red branded product that is subsidized by mass market production.

One thing i tink is worth mentioning, is that the RED cameras ARE actually "Cinematic" products, whatever you choose to use them for.

The scarlet cameras were supposed to move into the low end, television and photography, but Red seems to have recently drawn back from that to some extent. To get low end price point and make a profit, you need volume (and 4K) and to target the cameras to the market, as there is just not much volume in higher end. To take this market, you need to regard them seriously as well as regard cinematic users seriously, a foot in booth camps. We just have far too many cinematic people around here, who may represent 1-10% of the fixed scarlets market (maybe 50% + at first) if sales go well, just because of the sheer volume of other potential customers. If we now face a market dominated by the, relatively, few cinematographers out there, should I bother to buy one, and potentially be one of the few people in millions of square kilometers with one, with little future and support in my area or part of the industry.

It is in other words not neccesarily a solution that makes for a happy customer to try to defeat gravity...

A poor person would be happy with a mound to stand on above the water.

Thanks Gunleik, a well rationalized debate.

I hope to get enough information on cpu processing requirements to give an very rough estimate on GPU power sometime (these things can be very task specific, Grahame or one of that team should be able to give reasonable estimates). If anybody could contribute?

 

[Dane Brehm]

wait till sandy bridge comes out

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandy_Bridge_(microarchitecture)

 

[Wayne Morellini]

Anybody keeping up with the latest trends, would know that Intel has been holding off with USB 3 support, to implement it's own 100Gb/s cheap consumer optical I/O interface. It is designed to transport other protocols such as HDMI sata etc, over the one cheap port, so is a good candidate for a 8K port. Initial slower versions due shortly, I hope at Macworld (s a conveniently soon time slot b before the next Mac time slot months latter).

Ok I did some reading up of the latest. Things have been too quite on both light peak and Imac. This might indicate that it is not soon, that it would not be on a soon Imac.

It further looks like they might be intent with going with a 10Gb's second initial release rather than 40Gb/s. The bottleneck is the PCI-E bus, which means that either PCI-E increases, or preferably, maybe long term, more direct connections are made.

 

[Wayne Morellini]

Well, it looks like they pout Mac World back to the end of January. I now remember vaguely something about Apple de-emphasising Mac World as a release platform, but I do not see much mention of them going to do something at CES.

 

[Wayne Morellini]

A possible solution:

A possible solution:

Something has turned up from ambarella last month, and believe it is an Android OS app running advanced camera platform that has GPU (don't know if it is a fast model or not), has there own advanced video processing array (don't know if that can be customized for Redcode or redray) and will do 32mp stills, and 5mp video in the current version (I expect shd/4K end of this year release, if not into next year). I understand that some top tier manufacturers might be using ambarella technology in the better h264 encoding camera in recent years. They win many awards. This allows low end manufacturers to use a first rate chip set without spending 100 million to develop it and make it.

The interesting thing, is that the external displays I see from red use similar size and resolution formats to android tablets. With a chipset like this a tablet, or display, could be made into the other, and additional ones used around the sat, as I said before.

http://image-sensors-world.blogspot.com/2010/12/ambarella-ione-supports-32mp-imaging-on.html

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

http://ces.cnet.com/8301-32254_1-20027437-283.html

The unlocked Bluetooth connection also enables users to change camera settings through the app--a process that currently involves uploading preferences via USB--and may eventually allow for the wireless connection of proprietary and third-party accessories, such as external microphones or remote controls.
The ContourGPS currently retails for $349, and the Contour Mobile app should be free, when the Android version becomes available this spring. The iOS version of the app, currently pending Apple's approval, requires the use of a Contour ConnectView Bluetooth encryption card that costs $29.99.

 

[Wayne Morellini]

Looks nice. When they upgrade bluetooth standard, future products might be able to manage a nice h264 datarate. This sort of low res framing and control suites it normally. I did an analysis of a control viewfinder bluetooth system years ago for mobile phones, I came up with techniques for focus, framing and detail.