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Red and Moiré?

Christopher Barrett

Christopher Barrett

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Hey Guys,

This is my first post here and I have a question about how well the Red cameras handle Moiré.

First, as a little background, though I studied filmmaking in school I've spent the last twenty years as a still shooter specializing in architecture and interiors. Having become aware that motion was something more and more photographers were beginning to offer I decided to rediscover the medium.

Working with the 5d2 I was immediately disappointed with it's moiré issues (especially since texture and pattern are intrinsic to many of my client's work). The color and dynamic range of the compressed footage is also just ok.

I produce all my stills with a 60megapixel digital back on a view camera with German glass, so I really didn't expect to be satisfied with the 5d2 even though it can be impressive in the right situations.

So, the long and short of it is.... should I check out the Red? Is it greatly superior to the HDSLR when it comes to moiré? I'm already geeked out about the possibility of shooting a Raw format. Then if I really like it the problem is do a buy the One or wait for Epic?

Thanks for your thoughts,

Chris Barrett
 
The 5D Mk II is an excellent still camera with LOTS of megapixels. Did you ever see moiré on it's stills in full format?

I don't think so! It's optical low-pass filter (OLPF) is optimized for that. Unfortunately, it can't record 24 (or even more) fps at that resolution.

It records full speed video in 1920 by 1080, so the OLPF can't be optimized for that at the same time, or stills would look awfully soft. Instead, video looks like having no OLPF at all. Actually, it has less resolution in video than an EX-1 from Sony, much of what you see is fake resolution beyond the Shannon/Nyquist limit, enhanced by too much sharpening (in standard setting).

The RED One is recording every single pixel of it's current window in full cine speed and has an OLPF optimized for it's pixel count. I've never seen any luminance moiré on our R1. Like with any Bayer-pattern sensor you might see some chrominance moiré in rare cases, but the post-processing software has a filter for that if needed.

Go out and rent a R1 and you'll be in for a nice surprise!
 
Negligible moire or aliasing, and I've only really ever seen it on test patterns, not in real life shoots. As always, test, but I think you'll find that as digital cinema cameras go, RED has the very best moire performance of the lot of them.

Graeme
 
Moire really isn't too bad, we shoot quite a bit of fashion and the occasional tweed is handled better by the Red than the PhaseOne P45+.
 
I've seen a little moire in RED in some more extreme cases such as car grills at a distance and the classic screen door.

But nothing like the 5D where I got moire on a piece of plain blank white paper once.
 
A zone plate is a good test for moire:
1266225422.jpg


The 5D MkII:
1228226829.jpg
 
with black scrim 275 lee

with black scrim 275 lee

Hello,

It's really difficult to get RED footage to have moiré or alising problems. But you could run into that problem using Black Scrim 275 which is by itself a strong pattern. But it is possible to avoid it when used whisely! ;-)

here some samples:

http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=46866&highlight=scrim+275

Greatings.

Patrick
 

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Stephen Strangways said:
A zone plate is a good test for moire:
Click to expand...

It's been a while since I saw those images...the difference is really shocking.

As is the price difference...

"Pricing available upon request" (I seem to be hearing about $200,000.00).

Versus $25,000.00 + Accessories.

Stunning.


If you are going to run into moire, I think it would probably be something in the debayer or downscaling...yes?
 
I did some Moire tests for a commercial for a popular handheld LCD based touchscreen device. We tested 5D, SevenD, Nikon D3, Sony EX3 and Red. Red totally outperformed all of them. The thing is, you won't know this if you judge based on the LCD screen or EVF, you need to fully debayer and properly scale the image in order to see how little Moire there is. It's there, but very workable. I think there will always be frequencies where every digital camera will Moire, and LCDs are particularly problematic with Bayer pattern sensors it seems... that is until they build a sensor with randomly spaced photosites.

IBloom
 
Sanjin, I enjoyed your Leica lens tests. I actually have a Vario Elmar 28-70 on the way from KEH and an Eos adapter for that coming from Duclos. It has me thinking about the useability of still lenses on the R1. I also happen to have Zeiss ZF 35mm and 85mm's and Canon 17mm TS-E and 24mm TS-E 2. All of these are great glass and might prove useful on an R1. Is there a recommended / approved adapter? I don't know if the Birger is approved but it would be easy enough to adapt anything to Eos and go from there... thinking out loud.

Cheers,
CB
 
It happens very frequently on set that people will see moire on the Red's preview output. It is important to remember that this is a 'quick and dirty' preview. It is not fully debayered and in no way represents the moire (if any) in the properly processed file.

I once did a job where the props person was wearing a top with a very fine herringbone pattern. Any time she stepped into frame all of the monitors went absolutely crazy with moire patterns. I rolled footage of this at different sizes and focal lengths as a test and was completely shocked when I could not reproduce any moire in the finished footage.
 
As the EVF and LCD introduce a lot of moiré from their quick and dirty downscaling I use the 1:1 Zoom function to view the shot pixel for pixel to check for moiré. It has seemed to work fine for me, even though I know things will turn out a bit different when properly debayered.
 
Ok, I may have just solved the moire problem I was getting with the 5d2... I bought one of Ketch's R1 MX's. Totally psyched to take this thing out!!!

:)

CB
 
Graeme Nattress said:
Negligible moire or aliasing, and I've only really ever seen it on test patterns, not in real life shoots. As always, test, but I think you'll find that as digital cinema cameras go, RED has the very best moire performance of the lot of them.

Graeme
Click to expand...

Having tried all major pro digital gear models I would agree - there is no camera with less tendency to moire - shoot metal grills at f8 to your heart's content!
 
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