Red and Linux

[Kyle Mallory]

I'm a linux guy. I've used PC and Mac, but once I left, I swore I'd never go back. ;-)

However, I haven't truly left yet, because there isn't a good quality, Linux workflow for film & video without spending a gazillion dollars. I've read that Red is (hopes to be) an open platform...

So I'm curious what plans Red has for people like me, and what I might expect in the way of linux support (given than Mac is BSD, its not a *huge* stretch to linux)?

Also, I'm curious how many others here use Linux (any flavor) and what tools you've used and/or foresee using in your Red workflow?


Kyle

 

[GlennChan]

Well with Redcine you can convert your footage into image sequences (or some other compatible format, although it might just be particular types of image sequences). So that way, you can edit away.

Some high-end Linux-based systems can ingest material via SDI, which you can't do with Red (unless perhaps they integrate with a DDR???).

2- Perhaps Redcine might run on Linux (although I don't think this is the plan). It shouldn't be a big big deal to run Redcine on OS X / Intel or Windows... you can dual boot your computer, or use a separate machine.

 

[Antoine Baumann]

Sadly REDCINE will not (at least at the begining) run on Linux :-(

But as you said, it is hard to go only for Linux, as in my knowledge, there is not a decent NLE for a decent price running on Linux, therefore you is pretty much a necessity to have a Windope or OSX running.

Antoine.

 

[Thomas Mathai]

It's true there is no killer NLE on Linux.

There are a lot of post houses that use Linux for image processing though and it would be nice to have Red Cine on Linux somewhere down the road.

 

[Rob Lohman]

Kyle: my first question would be what it is that you want to do exactly on that platform. Everything or some specific things? Obviously there are some high-end applications available that will be interesting to work with.

For release with the camera the software will be available for Windows & Mac OS X (REDCINE has some extra limitations like an Intel CPU and a GPU with certain features).

After this we can and will look into what else we can do to support our customers.

 

[Kyle Mallory]

Thanks for the info Rob.

Ideally, I'd like to be able to accomodate at least 90% of the post- workflow in linux, eventually the whole thing. I'm not a composer or audio engineer, so I don't really care about that... ;-) But I'd settle for the ability to import/[pre]process my Red footage (REDCINE), and export proxies which could then be imported into an NLE, Compositor, etc (even the crappy ones), which can generate an EDL, which REDCINE could then generate DPX files from. I realize that the NLE, etc. isn't Red's deal (4k camera's are) (Unless Jim wanted to persuade some people to start one! hint-hint! He can hire me as the lead coder! ), so I can't ask too much (I guess it's too late to say that now!). But even being able to take the first step with the REDCINE would be great, if for nothing else that sheer performance. [JAB]Sorry OSX guys, but your machines are still slow.. and well, we won't even get into Windoze![/JAB]

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Having used Linux for years, I honestly can't understand the appeal it holds for some people. IMO, it's more of a political thing than anything else... Anyway, I'm just curious as to what NLE you plan to use with Linux. There really aren't very many options, at least not many good ones.

I use Linux here for server tasks and as a workstation platform for XSI and Maya. However, now that I no longer have any employees, I spend 99% of the time on a Mac. Not having photoshop on Linux is a huge deal breaker right there... Anyway, I always find Linux enthusiasm a curious topic. People always cite reliability, performance and cost as their reasons for using Linux. But in my experience, probably having owned and/or operated many more Linux systems over the years than most (I'm counting over 500 in the last 10 years), I've never got the TCO or ROI numbers to work out in Linux's favor.

 

[Kyle Mallory]

Jeff,

You are right in some regards. And in all fairness, I'm not a total zealot (like I said, I still edit on my PC) But, by your own statements, the issue with Linux is the application support. I'm not sure what NLE I'll use... because there aren't any decent ones, yet.

The problem with this conclusion, particularly in this situation, is that failure to offer application support, further reduces the potential of the operating system (if you could get the complete Adobe suite of products for Linux, would you still be on a Mac?)

Originally, my post was as much about Red's willingness to be an "open platform" as much as the Linux debate. In my opinion, an "open platform" is about empowering the user with decisions. Part of the decision, is whether I want to run REDCINE on Linux.

Simply from an end-user standpoint, having taken the time to outfit my environment with some of the more innovative Linux tools, I find (as do my coworkers), that my Linux environment smokes all of their Mac equivalent solutions. Now, mind you, I'm a programmer by trade, so in this case, were talking development environments, and a variety of other end-user, general purpose applications. In this industry, and without a proper Linux-based NLE, I can't really compare apples to apples.

But where it does matter (for me) is keeping my options open, and being able to continue to use the platform/OS of my choice.

Kyle

 

[MikeCurtis]

Kyle - wow, man, it just seems like you are setting yourself up for an uphill battle. Chose your battles carefully.

There are some great VFX post tools out their for Linux, but the infrastructure for ingest, editorial, etc. just aren't there AFAIK. Prep content on a Mac or PC, then shoot it over to your Linux box as frame sequences since you won't have QT or AVI support on the Linux box.

-mike

 

[Kyle Mallory]

Sorry to keep dragging this on, but...

I guess the real clincher here, IMO, is that companies that choose to support multiple platforms from the beginning tend to be more successful in that endeavor (of supporting multiple platforms), because the groundwork is already laid out to support the nuances of that decision. Ie, code that can be used between Windows, Linux, and Mac can be properly maintained, and rules are put in in place to ensure future compatibility of new code. While, companies that decide "let's focus on one OS, until we stabilize" end up staying with that onc OS, or have extreme difficulty in migrating because of legacy code that doesn't port well. How long did Adobe spend trying to get the Windows version of Photoshop to function at an equivalent level to the Mac version? Even now, Flash is on its way into Version 10 on Windows, Mac isn't far behind, but Linux is still in BETA of Version 9?

As a programmer, this isn't an issue of compatibility... it's an issue of commitment and resources.

On the subject, and in all seriousness, if Red is willing to make (even a minor) commitment to Linux, I'll volunteer to work with the REDCINE developers to try and maintain a Linux port.

 

[Kyle Mallory]

Kyle - wow, man, it just seems like you are setting yourself up for an uphill battle. Chose your battles carefully.

Yeah, I know... though its probably too late now.

There are some great VFX post tools out their for Linux, but the infrastructure for ingest, editorial, etc. just aren't there AFAIK. Prep content on a Mac or PC, then shoot it over to your Linux box as frame sequences since you won't have QT or AVI support on the Linux box.

-mike

Its true... Tools like The Gimp (with the animation add-on), and Blender (absolutely fantastic modeler that gives Maya a run for its money) are great (and even better) alternatives to some of the Win/Mac solutions. Its just a shame no one has really taken the reins on the NLE or Compositing side and done something equally well envisioned. Of course, I can buy Combustion for Linux, or Maya, etc., but not at those prices.

But let's take price and the whole "free" (as in free-beer) thing out of the equation. There are some very high-end solutions that are Linux-based for color timing, modeling, compositing, etc. If by some chance, I find myself with that software, I'm still in a position to keep a PC or Mac around to process my RED footage, only to move back to Linux for the bulk of the work.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I think I have to duplicate Mike's sentiments - wow, man.

But yeah, the "problem" with Linux is partially application support, partially hardware support. I'm definitely no zealot for any platform, I use Mac, Windows and Linux here and each serves its own unique purposes and has its own range of abilities, many which overlap. I'm not sure where you're coming from when you say Linux smokes the latest Mac systems. It's true you can build a PC right now with the latest quad-core CPUs and you have a few other video card options, but overall you're not gaining a whole lot. Apple tends to have product cycles that are less volatile and they bump specs every 3 months or so with major revisions every 6 to 8 months in most cases. For most applications that's fine. Unless you're in a position to always be cycling hardware on one or two workstations or unless you're going for bragging rights, there's really no advantage to having the latest and greatest PC hardware a couple months before Apple gets it. In most situations, what you're missing out on is intermediary tech, like the current crop of 8-core workstations that you could assemble today or buy from Dell or HP. Apple will release 8-core systems most likely around NAB, but it will be when they're ready to ship with the Intel Stoakley/Seaburg chipset to better support the 8-core CPU configuration.

Anyway, RED being an "open platform" doesn't imply that they will support all the OS options out there. I could see where REDCINE for Linux may be beneficial and I'm sure they will entertain the idea if enough people request. I'm all for it really, after all it will further increase flexibility and options for their customers.

But like Mike said, you need to choose your battles a little better. It's cool you prefer Linux -- many of my friends do and I prefer it over Windows. But in a commercial workflow where you have to deal with clients and standards and support for incoming and outgoing formats, you just can't put all your eggs in one basket or on the same platform. There's no way I could do everything I do entirely on Linux or entirely on the Mac. I couldn't even do it all on just Windows if I wanted due to some of my software and workflow choices and the needs of my clients.

I've got a decent programming / software development background myself. And REDCINE on Linux is just a matter of resource allocation. But there still needs to be sufficeint demand and purpose for the product to make it worth allocating resources to it. With the lack of support for AVI and QT and many of the common codecs out there, I question whether attention to a Linux port would even be justified.

 

[Kyle Mallory]

Anyway, RED being an "open platform" doesn't imply that they will support all the OS options out there. I could see where REDCINE for Linux may be beneficial and I'm sure they will entertain the idea if enough people request. I'm all for it really, after all it will further increase flexibility and options for their customers.

And this is all I'm really after... I'm not demanding or even expecting support for it, just asking, hoping and hopefully making a defendable argument as to why. My original post was as much about this, as it was testing the Red/Linux waters (ie, "what are Linux people thinking about the Red workflow?").

... REDCINE on Linux is just a matter of resource allocation. But there still needs to be sufficeint demand and purpose for the product to make it worth allocating resources to it. With the lack of support for AVI and QT and many of the common codecs out there, I question whether attention to a Linux port would even be justified.

QT and AVI support are trivial (generally already exist; QT to a lesser degree), and most Windows codec support with moderate to great support. Its true, if I'm the only one asking for Linux support, I wouldn't expect Red to comply... But if no one complained about the lack of a cost-effective 2k digital cinema camera... we wouldn't be here. Thus, it's only appropriate to complain about the lack of a cost-effective Red post-workflow for Linux as well.

 

[Antoine Baumann]

Kyle, you are not alone to ask for a Red post-workflow for Linux, I have already mentioned this lack on dvxuser.
I wrote back there, that there is very good NLE solution on Linux, unfortuantely only highend like Discreet Smoke or Piranha Cinema.

In my opinion Linux has been adopted a lot in the big studio for its high capacity in clustering (WETA has the biggest RedHat cluster of all ZL) and high reliability and performence, at a small portion of the cost of SGI working station.
Linux is now getting bigger every day, (all IBM germany is running under Linux, that means everybody including secretary...) and I think, is the alternative to windoze and MacOS. Personnaly I use my Linux box for Shake, Blender (stop using Maya) and Gimp.
The support for QT codecs already exist with QT4Linux, but I have to say that I have never really used it (tga/iff is my way, for the moment).

I know there is still some "piece" misiging in the Linux Motion picture pipeline, especially in the middle end products, and I still have to use windoze for editing and tracking, then I switch to linux for 3D, matte painting, compositing and finishing, then I have to go back to windoze for export and DVD authoring. But I would love to (at least) edit on Linux.

Kyle, are you serious about coding NLE for Linux? Because it has been a long time I am thinking to a simple but efficient NLE (oriented cinema not TV show), of course running under Linux. I would definitely be interessted in working on the design of the soft.

Cheers,
antoine.

 

[Kyle Mallory]

Kyle, are you serious about coding NLE for Linux? Because it has been a long time I am thinking to a simple but efficient NLE (oriented cinema not TV show), of course running under Linux. I would definitely be interessted in working on the design of the soft.

Cheers,
antoine.

I don't know if I ever said I was serious about coding an NLE from scratch ( I did say I would volunteer to maintain a Linux-port of REDCINE ). However, I have been thinking about coding a new NLE for the last few months. Unfortunately, I think this is beyond my abilities (I've very little experience with Linux GUI's/GTK), and my current schedule. Something of this magnatude would require a half-a-dozen people (programmers, designer, and architect), full-time, for 6 months at least... which would mean money.

However, that said, I think the world is overdue for a mid-level, Linux-based, GL excellerated NLE, much like Blender, but specialized for Multi-track, format-independent video editing and compositing. If I could quit my day job to do devote full-time to an endevour like this and still make my mortgage, I'd do it in an instant.


Kyle

 

[Garth Philpot]

Here Here ... I second that ... have you guys looked at Ubuntu Studio ... that would be the perfect platform . Mark Shuttleworth has deep pockets and a philanthropist view point ...

http://ubuntustudio.org/

 

[M Most]

Sadly REDCINE will not (at least at the begining) run on Linux :-(

But as you said, it is hard to go only for Linux, as in my knowledge, there is not a decent NLE for a decent price running on Linux, therefore you is pretty much a necessity to have a Windope or OSX running.

Smoke is an excellent Linux based NLE, at a very decent price for what you get. If what you really mean is "there isn't a cheap, $1000 NLE that runs on Linux and that I can put on my own PC", that's true.

 

[Kyle Mallory]

Here Here ... I second that ... have you guys looked at Ubuntu Studio ... that would be the perfect platform . Mark Shuttleworth has deep pockets and a philanthropist view point ...

http://ubuntustudio.org/

Yeah, I actually run Ubuntu, and have been watching Studio since it was announced back at the first of the year. Unfortunately, their NLE of choice is Cinelerra. Unfortunate, because Cinelerra lacks some real finesse. It reports to do a lot of cool stuff, but when it comes down to actually using it, its not a pleasant experience (when it doesn't crash).

I'm keeping my eye on Pitivi as one that is getting a lot of active development, and their use of the GStreamer framework and GNonLin for media handling is brilliant.

I checked out the Pirahna suite at NAB earlier this year, and I think they have a great product, I just wish they would consider a "lite" version in the $300-500 price range.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

We tried running a studio a few years ago with maya/linux/shake. Gave up. And switched over to a dual boot exclusively for shake. Gave up on the server and finally switched to a full blown windows domain and never had any more problems.

I just can't see it being cost effective. I haven't had windows at work crash on me more than once in the last couple of months.

REDCine on Linux just feels like a an empty grotto. Even if you did all the processing in linux you then to boot into another OS to work with it. Which is a hastle.

Also REDCode is pretty quicktime dependant and I wouldn't want to wait on full blown consistant quicktime compatibilty in every flavor of linux.

 

[Kyle Mallory]

REDCine on Linux just feels like a an empty grotto. Even if you did all the processing in linux you then to boot into another OS to work with it. Which is a hastle.

Just because a low-end, or highly public NLE doesn't exist yet for linux doesn't mean the workflow is non-existent.

Pirhana Director from IFX, any of the Autodesk/Discreet Suite, The Nucoda line from Digital Vision, Davinci Systems, Houdini, Mokey/Monet for stabilization and tracking. All of these run on Linux. Many of these are exclusive to Linux.

While the numbers of these systems may not play to Red's market, the players (major studios) certainly do.

So, let's rephrase your comment:

"Even if you did all the processing in OSX, you then to boot into Linux to work with it. Which is a hastle."


I've said before, I understand Red's position when it comes to numbers and development resources for not making REDCine linux based. I don't agree with it, but I understand it. However, don't write off Linux, or any other OS, simply because you don't use the same tools, or because your workflow is different.