Red and Flame

[M Most]

Just made the count:
For the Macpro suite 40/45.000 USD. All included.

(forgot to mention before an BMD or Aja box, the Adobe CS3 extended + AE)

What about the Autodesk products?

A turnkey Smoke system can be had for under $70K. You can also put Flame on the same system for not that much more.

The primary difference in cost is not in the purchase, it's in the maintenance. Autodesk products require a yearly maintenance contract, which if you're a professional facility, is a very good idea anyway. The Apple solution you mentioned won't, at least not directly. Hopefully you'd have a system integrator put together the package and support it. It's likely that the support fee would be less than the Autodesk support, however.

 

[Corrado Silveri]

Thanks (a lot).
But... What do you think?
Let's forget for a second pure money...
What's the best choice? Or, assuming the Discreet Box is the best, What are the Pro/Cons of each one?
With the Mac box I know I can do a LOT of things... From Capture to Mastering dvd's...

 

[tj williams]

Stokestack
Verrrrry Interestingggggg..... I didn't know a bout the deal offer.... another stupid move for DL I did believe the support stoppage was more than they said. Other stuff had me in a pretty distrustful space with their customer support.

I won't even go into a room containing a Discreet Logic product. The only thing worse than their lack of regard for the customer is their stupidity. I hope I'm still around to dance on their worthless stock when they fall.

So buy for $70 K and how many hours before the software catches you..... gotta work fast.....
This is basically the great thing for me about the RED... I will have recovered my 17500+ accessories so much faster than the
F900Rs $66,000 plus the life of the RED will be longer. Kinda like watching the Apple folk and assimilate

http://www.assimilateinc.com/color.html

catch a little of the Davinci work this year at nab.....
I sat in on a Demo with a colorist fm Europe Nacho somthing... who is doing about 10 movies a year at 50KUSD each on a system that cost under 100K. Same kinda price performance as the RED. All the hardware he uses is off the shelf. and it works really fast. Another place where it becomes about the artist... and he really is one... not the huge piece of equipment. I still remember "CMX" "Grass Valley" etc when they had the big booths and only a big company could own the means of production.

 

[Corrado Silveri]

Hey tj, you are soooo clear and comprehensible. Thanks.

 

[M Most]

Thanks (a lot).
But... What do you think?
Let's forget for a second pure money...
What's the best choice? Or, assuming the Discreet Box is the best, What are the Pro/Cons of each one?
With the Mac box I know I can do a LOT of things... From Capture to Mastering dvd's...

Who is your client base? I ask this because the perception of your client base is at least as important as what the equipment you have will do - as is the level of talent either you or your employees bring to the table. If you or your employees are not experienced Discreet users, there will be both a learning curve and a practical ceiling on what you can accomplish in a given amount of time compared to platforms you might be more familiar with. As far as client perception, if you are in a market where "big iron" is available, and your clients are used to it, they will likely want to use something similar, in which case your rates can likely be higher than they can for what they will perceive as "a Mac." There are many, many ways to accomplish the same task today. What you buy and use depends on your client base and their expectations, as well as your anticipated turnarounds and deliverables.

Lots of people want to make this about dollars spent on the equipment for the original purchase. If you're running a business, it's a bit more complicated than that.

 

[Corrado Silveri]

Catch your point.
Various type of clients, btw. Most of them are comfortable with the FCS workflow (events, corporate, documentary, training, etc.).
But there are some productions more "important" (commercial, high level corporate video).
No problem at all until today. I've already done a lot of commercials aired on national brodcast networks.

So, this seems a "nonsense" (if you have clients and you can satisfy them, why worry?).

But I want to know if these box are... more than some tools that "you-must-have" just to have your passport to the elite.

I want to know if they worth the money. I've read a lot of things about.

I've read many many times that the speed of this systems is really stunning. I've read also that today this is not-so-truth (about the speed).

I really don't know where is the (real) truth.

 

[M Most]

Well, if you've got the work to put through it, you'll most likely accomplish more, and accomplish it in a more polished way, with Discreet tools provided a couple of things are true - namely, that your work involves more than basic editorial (visual effects are where these systems really shine), and that you have an operator with a good deal of experience on either Smoke, Fire, Flame, or Inferno. If neither of these things are the case, then the added features, integrated nature of the toolset, and speed aren't going to buy you very much. If however, they are the case, then having the Autodesk solutions could help to make money for you. In the end, that's what it's about: the ability of your tools and your talent to make money. In the end, it's a business, and this is a business decision. It's not about platform religion, and it's not even about the basic cost of the toolset. It's about what your business is, where your clients are coming from, and what you can provide to make them happy. Only you can decide what the "right" answer is.

 

[Corrado Silveri]

Thanks mmost, I've understand. Just typing the Autodesk phone number (to arrange a private demo).

Damn, I wish I will carry with me some Redcode Raw files...

Ciao, Elcurado.

 

[Kyle Stauffer]

You're talking about playing rendered clips. I have never seen a Flame or any other computer based device that can do green screen extractions and create multilayer composites without rendering. The Linux based Flame and Inferno builds are indeed faster than the SGI builds they replace. But they are hardly real time for anything other than playing rendered clips.

Come on over and have a seat then my friend We did some tests with the Flame installer when he flew in to setup the new system and even he was amazed at the speed increase over previous versions. We really were doing composites and keying realtime, with no rendering. Color correction, etc on top of that... no rendering. Granted you still "render" once you've completed your task and want to commit it, but as far as working it's blazin'. When you do "render" it, it's almost instantaneous. The 3D tracker even fully tracked an 8 second shot in under a second.

Also, I think Inferno still runs on SGI, and hasn't made the linux jump yet, right?

 

[Simon Blackledge]

Inferno on Linux is out in Japan due to demand I recall.

s

 

[wlaroussi]

Hi ,

Inferno have been ported to linux . The only product i know that still working on Irix Onyx system is Fire (an NLE system like smoke but more faster , it's depends on how many processors you put on your SGI Onyx) .

I have read the post about discreet edit drop out . Autodesk now is leaving Irix for linux while many studios are not yet ready for that . All autodesk IFFS (inferno , flame , flint , smoke) are very handy and fast , but you can't learn them as fast as avid or FCP and they cost alot of $ . You can make the same composition with digital fusion, nuke , boujou and other softs for less money but it's time consuming for rendering and data exchange between them . Now the mixup of Irix and linux is a headache for autodesk .

Here is a summary on some autodesk products .

Flame (like mistika ex jaleo) is used by niche studios for commercials , music clips effects , where a production director want to see all the ideas with effects in real time . Smoke is sometimes used for editing and finishing jobs .
Inferno is used by big studios for final 4K complex compositing with fire for editing specially when some 3D animation scenes are involved.
Lustre is for color grading is from the original product named colossus that was purchased by discreet . Other products like scratch and Iridas speedgrade onset do the same job for less money and of course less facilities.
Toxik (ex 5D cyborg) can do compositing in collaborative work (like shake and nuke long time ago) but with thight interaction with other autodesk softs .
Combustion is the cheaper compositing product of autodesk and nobody knows if it future will be deadly like discreet edit .
The big advantage of autodesk IFFS is real time RGB<>YUV 4:4:4 conversion without quality loss . Quantel , Avid DS , Mistika and some other turnkey systems are almost at the same level .

Now the big hit that software industry may do is losless interactive codecs mastering (like cineform or bayer which are far more better than avid fcp and the rest) . If those codecs will be integrated with success into new or old NLE softwares , then monsters like IFFS , avid DS and Quantel won't be the same as right now . :innocent:

Regards .

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Discreet proceeded to can the product, team, and later the Combustion team.

Uhh... has anyone told the combustion team? They claim to still exist.

Mind you they are either lazy as all hell, gutted or else holding back for an awesome release, but they're at least still posting on forums claiming to be working.

 

[Lucas Wilson]

Lustre is for color grading is from the original product named colossus that was purchased by discreet.

The *original* product was SACC from ColorFront. SACC was licensed by 5D and repackaged as Colossus. When the product side of 5D went away, the IP was acquired by Discreet, which then renamed Colossus as Lustre.

Other products like scratch and Iridas speedgrade onset do the same job for less money and of course less facilities.

I'd like to hear where you think SCRATCH falls short of Lustre... do you have specific examples?

The big advantage of autodesk IFFS is real time RGB<>YUV 4:4:4 conversion without quality loss .

Sorry... this does not make a lot of sense to me. Internally, everything on the Autodesk Media Products runs at RGB. If you are dealing with YPbPr signal natively, I can understand why it doesn't necessarily make a difference, but why is it a significant advantage?

Lucas
-----
Drinker of Lattes
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA

 

[Ace]

I'd like to hear where you think SCRATCH falls short of Lustre... do you have specific examples?

I think he was trying to say that scratch does the same job for less facilities required to do the job..

 

[Lucas Wilson]

I think he was trying to say that scratch does the same job for less facilities required to do the job..

Rereading it, I think you're right. Sorry Laroussi! :blink:

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA

 

[wlaroussi]

Hi ,

Thanks Luki for the extra details on colossus . As usual i try to put the best informations i know (i get , read or experienced) . If your are a scratch member , dealer or like so , don't get hurt when i do some kind of comparison. Scratch is definitively one of the most used tool for grading . If i gave a lot of infos about autodesk products is just because they have a huge package of softwares from 3D to top level video and film motion . On the other side it's interesting to expect the arrival of new competitors with low prices and similar behaviors . That's why i pointed out the major key position of codecs on the market ; 4K with a data rate of 70 MB/S on esata is something impossible on avid , fcp or autodesk porducts , but WHY ?. Now if i have enough money i will get a dozen of softwares just because some tasks are so funny and easy to do on one of them but not all . And what's bad rignt now is the time lost in transcoding , rendering , linking ... data just because the rules are like this . Red one gave a good example of how "easy" to defeat those rules and give to the customers a top level camera for a real good bargain and without pushing him to a restricted and proprietary workflows , accessories , adaptors and so on . Even though the camera production hit the most difficult period and may be will fail , the idea and all the hard work done is a big challenge .
Autodesk and other companies are doing for film what adobe did for desktop publishing and multimedia (giving big packages of complementary softwares) but with a high price , a very high price . If the success of red one will gave a multicamera doing almost everthing with ease , well is not yet the case of video/cinema softwares .

Regards . :shifty:

 

[Corrado Silveri]

Hi,
just planned an Autodesk private Demo for tomorrow.
I've a LOT of question to ask at the technician...
BTW, if anyone (apart RT performance) can suggest me some specific points to achieve a good comparison between the systems, will be great.

Thanks in advance.

:innocent:

 

[Seán_T]

^^ Pester them about 32 bit float and limited range of QT codec's.
The other questions depend on which Autodesk system your seeing demod

 

[Corrado Silveri]

Thanks Seán_T.

I will post a report in a couple of days.

 

[Corrado Silveri]

Hi guys,
seen demoed a (linux-box) Autodesk Smoke. + Hints and speech about the other Autodesk products (Flint/Flame/Inferno). 2 hours.

Pros:
Really an impressive piece of software. 8192x8192 max res.
Extreme powerful keying, tracking, CC (Btw, all this features will be achieved with a good combo of OSX Apps - FCS2, Shake, Furnace plug, Bojou, Mokey/Monet/Motor).
The real difference is that here you will find all the tools you need in ONE, blazing fast and really well optimized app.
Interface fluid and snap in every situation (compare to Shake).
Transparent background renders. Btw you NEED to render out to finalize your works. It's fast, but you have to calculate Motion Blur, anti alias etc..


Cons:
Prince range (obvious) and storage/filesystem (you must do all the trick on a dedicate, very expensive array of disks named Stone - if you have multiple projects -or a very big one- you must swap the contents in and out...)

Conclusion
If you're working alone (without the client behind your shoulders) you can buy with the same money 3 or 4 FCS2+Shake very powerful workstations (BMD/AJA top solutions).
And a very large storage (xRaid or whatever). And you can setup a SAN. And you remain with some money to go out for a dinner with 20-30 friends...

But if you need blazing speed, top quality vfx, and you're always in a hurry... This is the solution. Sorry for your friends...