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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Red and Flame

K

Kyle Stauffer

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Been messing about with the current available footage from Red on the 4k Flame (milkgirls & the jackson clip). Even in its compressed, web-delivered state, the footage is really quite nice to grade and work with. I really can't wait to get an uncompressed 2k or 4k clip to drop in and work with.

Has anyone here worked with any raw assets from Red on Lustre, etc yet? I'm assuming someone did for the Jackson short, but anyone here with hands on?
 
kai,

Sorry this is off topic, but I could not help but notice that you are using autodesk applications. I've been dying to try these out on a linux machine, as supposedly they blow avid, FCP and premiere out of the water in terms of stability and versitility. The problem of course, is that they are a little out of my budget. i was wondering if you knew where i could find a trial version, or something of that nature. thanks ----jb
 
Folks at Weta are tight lipped still
 
el_cheapo said:
kai,

Sorry this is off topic, but I could not help but notice that you are using autodesk applications. I've been dying to try these out on a linux machine, as supposedly they blow avid, FCP and premiere out of the water in terms of stability and versitility. The problem of course, is that they are a little out of my budget. i was wondering if you knew where i could find a trial version, or something of that nature. thanks ----jb
Click to expand...

I'm a little puzzled as to why you think a linux application would be more versatile (leaving aside the stability). The versatility of any app is inherent and unless you want to use Flame...? I use Eyeon's Fusion on Windows XP boxes - brilliant app. Shake is terrific on Apple and really affordable. What apps do you have in mind?
 
kai said:
I really can't wait to get an uncompressed 2k or 4k clip to drop in and work with.

Has anyone here worked with any raw assets from Red on Lustre, etc yet? I'm assuming someone did for the Jackson short, but anyone here with hands on?
Click to expand...

Uncompressed tiffs of David Stump's November '06 green screen tests can be found in CML. Here:

http://www.cinematography.net/Red/comp-matrix.html

Exposure tests here:

http://www.cinematography.net/Red/red-greenscreen.html
&
http://www.cinematography.net/red-exposure.html

I posted some early grading treatments and thoughts here:
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=78368

As for keying and color grading Red images on Flame / Inferno / Lustre - yes it is a dream, a truly powerful combo... however I'm starting to get a bit ticked that discrete/autodesk seems to be completely locked into an uncompressed paradigm, and are showing no signs of embracing elegant new compression schemes. In Red's case, that means upping the data rate by at least 36 times just to deal with Redcode (may be as high as 48x depending on Redcode's final compression specs) Put another way, that means 3hrs of Redcode Raw (320 MB Red Drive) translates into over 5 terabytes of uncompressed data. That would kill my Inferno, haha. Sadly I expect to switch over to the new Shake when it ships, as they will likely follow FCPs lead and support new codecs, including (fingers crossed) Redcode Raw, or the new archival "post" Redcode that the boys have been hinting at.

The post production mantra that "uncompressed is king" is about to be challenged in a big way. I simply see no advantage in converting a native Redcode Raw images into a 12 bit tiff or DPX unless you enjoy ramming your head against a data brick wall. Sorry discrete - it's been fun.

Bravo to FCP and Scratch for what they are doing!
 
Boothba said:
As for keying and color grading Red images on Flame / Inferno / Lustre - yes it is a dream, a truly powerful combo... however I'm starting to get a bit ticked that discrete/autodesk seems to be completely locked into an uncompressed paradigm, and are showing no signs of embracing elegant new compression schemes. In Red's case, that means upping the data rate by at least 36 times just to deal with Redcode
Click to expand...

That´s the strange evolution isn´t it? There was a time, I think 10 years and more ago, where we had to struggle with compression because the hardware was not fast enough so the image quality was bad.
Then came the time when everyone was promoting uncompressed because that was the holy grail in terms of quality.
And now eveybody is moving to compression again, because processing power and software technology has made it possible to keep quality AND have less memory usage ( cineform/ si, prores/apple-aja,Redcode ).
 
Bachman said:
Cheapo, just do a Torrent search
Click to expand...



Well, The thing about autodesk smoke/flame/inferno etc. is that they are generally unavailible on torrent sites. Iv'e tried. I personally have never used any of these applications; I only know what others have said. Normally I use a pc running media composer or premiere. Perhaps I'm just an inadequate computer user, but lately Ive been contemplating getting a mac after several freezing/crashing issues.
I'm interested autodesk as an alternative to buying a mac. I believe I could build a more powrful linux machine for the same price i would pay for a mac. Thanks for your help.
 
Flame, Smoke, Lustre, Quantel... etc are more about workstation with very special hardware, so performance and rendering speed of this systems is in another level than your naked home computer. Even if you find software part of this systems, its useles without proper hardware.
 
el_cheapo said:
Sorry this is off topic, but I could not help but notice that you are using autodesk applications. I've been dying to try these out on a linux machine, as supposedly they blow avid, FCP and premiere out of the water
Click to expand...

Avid is an autodesk product ;)
 
El Cheapo.. torrents.. for Flame? sigh....

Being tied to just uncompressed is a bit of a pain. But considering the money these cost.. the price clients pay per hour.. you should not be to bothered about storage.

Main gripe may be exporting from redcine a dpx seq.. then the import into the framestore.. rather than just load. Though you can just point FFI at seq's on network storage volumes now.

Uncompressed works.. your not going to run into compression troubles.. timeline errors.. playback errors etc.. which ain't what you need with a screaming agency behind you.

Artists want to be artists.. not to wait. Same as editors.. just want to edit. Colourists just want to grade.. not wait..

I've had Avid editors complain that they hate the red line in FCP.. "I have to render it" unlike avid.. But they are comparing a FCP macpro with an xraid to a DS Nitirousssssy thing.. that costs 200k!... pointless.If it's anything else they have set FCP up wrong.. which lets face it isn't hard.. tooooooooooooooooo many pre-sets.

Thats the mold breaking thing about RED. If your really good.. and the red is soooo good.. 4k.. great image.. you stand to make alot of $$$. Discreets take is to charge alot coz your makin alot. Not Red.

Almost like Apple just adding Color for nothing to FCS2.. well not quite.. ;)

Flame is a great product and well priced if you use it right. But it's just another tool.. as is Red1.
 
el_cheapo said:
Well, The thing about autodesk smoke/flame/inferno etc. is that they are generally unavailible on torrent sites. Iv'e tried. I personally have never used any of these applications; I only know what others have said. Normally I use a pc running media composer or premiere. Perhaps I'm just an inadequate computer user, but lately Ive been contemplating getting a mac after several freezing/crashing issues.
I'm interested autodesk as an alternative to buying a mac. I believe I could build a more powrful linux machine for the same price i would pay for a mac. Thanks for your help.
Click to expand...

Yeah you're not going to find these systems on some file sharing site, etc because as was mentioned, they're complete hardware/software systems, and they ain't cheap. The flame upgrade I just did was $150k (upgrade!). I will say though that on the linux box, this new version just simply screams.

You mentioned building a linux box, but imho a mac will serve you better because its much more versatile, and there's more software available that will serve you across the production pipeline. Flame, etc are very specialized systems.
 
flameop said:
I've had Avid editors complain that they hate the red line in FCP.. "I have to render it" unlike avid.. But they are comparing a FCP macpro with an xraid to a DS Nitirousssssy thing.. that costs 200k!... pointless.
Click to expand...

I loaattheeee the little red bar. And let me tell you. I've run xpress pro on a pathetic Athlon 1200 before streaming media over a 100 base network and it kicked the living daylights out of FCP on a 3ghz mac with an attached raid.

Go figure.

FCP is not in my mind real time. I can't scrub even SD material on a fancy new intel mac like I can in Avid on an ancient computer.

It doesn't take a Nitris to spank FCP.
 
kai said:
Yeah you're not going to find these systems on some file sharing site, ...
Click to expand...

You can. I found old Cyborg 5 stuff on eDonkey net, but during instalation it asked for hardware (maybe some geek...). You can also find some Flame, (Smoke) stuff there and linux Toxic on torrens too. But from reactions it looks nobody wasnt able to run it. "I get the same problem, when it starts toxik tells me that can not connect to the permit server. WHO EVER HAS INSTALLED AND RUN THE SOFTWARE CAN TELL US." :shifty:
But availability of Flame/Inferno, Cyborg manuals and learning files on p2p net is very usefull if you dont have any possibility to touch real machines but aspire once to work with them.

You can find surprisingly very interesting stuff on net...

But even if you buy these expensive machines (and dont want to pay for nonstop maintenance) you need to employ some IT geeks to run it and service it 24/7. Our boys allways change broken hardware parts with sticker labels "This part can be installed only by authorized "name of company" service engineer". :whistling:

But real time uncompressed editing is a breeze (with instant delivering of every frame via SDI during scrubing opposite to working on FCP and Blkmgc and rendering and rendering ...) :w00t:
 
a few years ago i did a promo with green screen and all the back ground element needed to be timelapse so i shot on my nikon d10 which gave me file in size 3504x2336...and worked with them in flame the result where stunning...but it was a slow does your flame have a autodesk burn farm and do you think this will become a must when working with red files
 
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