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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

RED alternative....

Skip, the HDX900 is probably the least expensive way to go. Messing with P2 cards on a doc shoot doesn't sound fun. You'd need a lot of cards unless you had a dedicated download person. The HDX900 has a firewire port which I believe you could use to digitize your footage after the shoot - no need to by another deck. You could do a test with Greg to see if that is an option.

The biggest drawback of the HDX900 is that it is only 720P native. It uprezzes to make 1080.

Has a built in downconverter, can output 3 different sets of framelines, great on batteries, pretty light.

So... when are we leaving? :-)
 
1) what is low budget for a 14 wk doc ? 10k, 300k ?
how many shooting days ?
...

2) the 40k - is that in the doc budget or is this you putting up your $ to buy camera to use on this low budget doc ...

3) is the money for the Doc in your account yet ?

4) your accountant thinks it's better to buy or rent/lease ?

right now rentals are very sloooooooooooooow in LA (writers strike) ... there could be DEALS out there for a 14wk rental ???
 
The HDX900 is a great camera.
 
gunleik said:
(HPX 3000 (If it is out))

Gunleik
Click to expand...

The camera is out and we have it available both for sales and rental.

Mitch Gross
Abel Cine Tech
 
I have the HDX900 and it is a great camera. Get the widest lens you can afford, you wont be sorry, and when you get your Red you can use it with a b4 adapter for 2k stuff.
 
I fully endorse the HDX900 (I own one). However, I also own a Varicam, and I must say, there are some things it does that the HDX900 just won't do, and I often need those things. You can pick up a used Varicam for the same price as a new 900.

Not sure of your post flow, but you don't want to be digitizing from your camera, the 900 can take a firestore which now that they have the bugs worked out kicks ass, and is cheap. Slow-mo playback by it's self is worth the firestore in my opinion.

If you are shooting a ton of off speed stuff in 50hz world, go Varicam, otherwise the HDX900 is awsome.

Cheers,

Nick
 
CrewPix.com said:
Skip, the HDX900 is probably the least expensive way to go. Messing with P2 cards on a doc shoot doesn't sound fun. You'd need a lot of cards unless you had a dedicated download person. The HDX900 has a firewire port which I believe you could use to digitize your footage after the shoot - no need to by another deck. You could do a test with Greg to see if that is an option.

The biggest drawback of the HDX900 is that it is only 720P native. It uprezzes to make 1080.

Has a built in downconverter, can output 3 different sets of framelines, great on batteries, pretty light.

So... when are we leaving? :-)
Click to expand...

Great post man. Unfortunately, neither you nor me are going. Well, I might pop over there for a spell, but definately not for the whole job. I'm just gonna send over people for this one.

To answer some of the other questions, the budget of $40K is for the camera. Actually, I could probably spend $80K for camera, lenses and a lighting kit. So weighing my options, and appreciate the input. I like the idea of the HDX900 with a firestore. Never knew that was possible. Great tip. Thanks.

Here's a question for you all. What lens(es) would you recommend, and do you know the cost? I would have liked to get my RED lenses for this shoot, and buy a Pro35 adapter, but it looks like I won't get those in time. So looking for options.
 
The Canon HJ 11ex4.7B (4.7mm to 52mm) is a great documentary lens. 4.7mm on an HD camera gives you nice majestic wides, and the 52 is long enough for most doc situations. At the wide end, you can throw it on a steadicam and not even worry about focus. Best of all it has almost no breathing when you pull focus. We shot most of the Anvil doc with it.
 
CrewPix.com said:
The Canon HJ 11ex4.7B (4.7mm to 52mm) is a great documentary lens. 4.7mm on an HD camera gives you nice majestic wides, and the 52 is long enough for most doc situations. At the wide end, you can throw it on a steadicam and not even worry about focus. Best of all it has almost no breathing when you pull focus. We shot most of the Anvil doc with it.
Click to expand...

How is the depth of field on a lens like this? More like video or more like film? And what is the mount B? And what is a good second lens to go from around 50mm - 150mm, and can i get a doubler for that to take me all the way into 300mm?
 
Beyond all the piece of mind that comes from renting (back-up equipment, service, support, etc.) if you're looking strictly from a dollars and sense standpoint you still come out way ahead with renting, even on inexpensive equipment. I don't know any rental facility that won't cut bigger discounted deals on a long term rentals.

Example, I provided (at times up to) 38 cameras to a network TV show that lasted about 5-months. It would have cost more money to purchase all the equipment then they had budgeted for the entire production.

If you're a professional and thinking seriously about purchasing HD ENG equipment for a project, take a realistic look at every piece of gear that you need to buy to be covered. This includes every cable in duplicate, spare fuses, rain covers, tax and insurance. If its multiple cameras and you're not savvy, you'll also need to include engineering service to match.

After you have your REAL total purchase cost. Then take your $$$ number, and get a quote on the next model up (superior equipment, and sometimes even format!) for rental for the time period of your production. 99 times out of 100 the rental is still a better deal. Even if you add in an extra week of re-shoots, and shipping/freighting costs, you can still end up way ahead with renting.

To be fair, once you hit 24+ weeks of NON-consecutive shooting then maybe it's worth the effort to budget purchasing production equipment for a show. However, in my experience most of these companies tend to regret it, especially when their camera fails. Every rental house rents to clients/production companies that bought a (fill in the blank...) HVX, F900, Varicam..etc but only purchased a camera body, no lens, no tripod, in the case of one network- no batteries! You don't get the same discounted rates when you only rent accessories, this goes for every rental house.

As a bonus, you still get to pay for all the maintenance, and year round insurance.

I.

Illya Friedman
DALSA
Woodland Hills, CA
www.dalsa.com/dc
 
Some good points there. Since I have a production company in Saudi Arabia, there are other factors involved too. We could use the camera on future shoots. We already have a small support kit, with small jib arm, tripod, head, spider dolly, dolly track, etc. We definately don't regret buying those items, even though we thought renting would be better when we bought them for that 'one job'. but we have used them so much over the past two years that buying was the right call. we think it will be again. the camera won't be just for this one job....we hope.
 
skipdivils said:
Some good points there. Since I have a production company in Saudi Arabia, there are other factors involved too. We could use the camera on future shoots. We already have a small support kit, with small jib arm, tripod, head, spider dolly, dolly track, etc. We definately don't regret buying those items, even though we thought renting would be better when we bought them for that 'one job'. but we have used them so much over the past two years that buying was the right call. we think it will be again. the camera won't be just for this one job....we hope.
Click to expand...

Totally agree! Purchasing makes much more sense with camera support equipment, especially if your use is primarily off and on again for several productions each year. Those items don't have the same limited life span. I still own an old O'Connor, I bought way back in film school. That head has been around 40+ years and it'll still takes almost any camera you can throw at it. The same doesn't hold true for electronic cameras, the clock start ticking the moment you pull it out of it's box.

I always tell my owner op clients that if you have to purchase something for a tax write off, or to rent as kit, go with a good fluid head (and head aks). No matter what new camera comes along, you can always plop it on a 2575, V60 or even a 40-year old O'connor.

I think I've told the story before of the professional SVHS camcorder I purchased in the early 90s. It was good for about 6 months, which was about how long it took for me to pay it off. Then the Canon L series debuted with better quality at a fraction of the cost. Almost overnight (really a few months) the value of my camera plummeted to a point where it wasn't worth selling. I now >literally< use the camera as a door stop to my tool shed. It's my subtle reminder to never personally purchase another "professional" camera again.

I.

Illya Friedman
DALSA
Woodland Hills, CA
www.dalsa.com/dc
 
Mitch Gross said:
You could also step up a notch to the Panasonic HPX3000, which is a true 1080p camera with incredible performance. It outperforms the Sony F900R and makes a real run at the F23. I don't know why Panasonic hasn't gotten the kind of attention for it that Sony has for their top of the line cameras. This machine is pretty incredible.

Mitch Gross
Technical Director of Rental
Abel Cine Tech
Click to expand...

Any guesses as to why the HPX3000 isn't getting the major league buzz and do you think it will eventually really catch on?
 
I wish I knew why it wasn't getting the buzz, because it really is such a top flight machine. We're working with Panasonic to try to get the word out. It's beyond the F900R and up there with the F23 in many ways. I even think it could show a RED One a thing or two... ;-)

I think this camera will be around for some time and will earn the respect it deserves. For anyone interested, we sell them and have them available for rent.

Mitch Gross
Abel Cine Tech


Mitch Gross
Abel Cine Tech
 
The 3000's problem is it doesn't "Look" any different. The F23 "Looks" different. We all know that's bull shit, but it's hard to convince a producer its the most amazing thing since sliced bread when it looks like sliced bread.
 
Skip,

I've put up some HPX500 screen shots here: HPX500 at Bootcamp I also PM'd you links to a couple motion clips shot on the Canon 40X (our bandwidth got hosed on via the Apache clips). The lenses I used were the Canon FJ24, HJ22ex7.6 and a HJ40x10 all recorded at 720Pn.

(at the time I made that page of shots I was having export issues (couldn't get clean exports without jaggys unless I did a screen capture) so I resized them individually, but you'll get an idea).
 
I worked as a gaffer on a low budget feature on the SI-2K mini in Albania - the first shoot outside of the US and I guess the first full length feature on it.

From my experience there I can definitely tell you, that there is no chance to use this camera for documentary work. The dp shot 90% handheld and the production in Albania was totally chaotic.

I'd go with the HPX500. Had a great time shooting a music video with it and loved the 37 fps for a subtile slomo.
 
mmost said:
The Dalsa is also rental only. As is the D20 (which you didn't mention, but it likely belongs in the same group...).

Your comment on cost is true if we're only talking about low budget production. Many features and television productions seem to be able to afford the Genesis just fine.
Click to expand...

I kept my comments to the genesis because the presentations I saw were Red and Genesis back to back filming the same model and projecting the image via 2k projector. The red looked clean in the video sense of the word while the genesis had "soul". The image looked "graded" if that makes any sense. Granted that presentation probably had build 10 or 11 so I suppose Red's image has improved but there's nothing like seeing 2 cameras shoot the same model...all the technobabble specs converge to bring that elusive life to the image - genesis did that in spades while Red left me thinking that the magic would have to happen in post...

You're absolutely right I should have added low budget production to my comment.
 
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