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Red aerials - help please!!!

J

Joe Shemesh

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Hi all,

Am hoping some of you guys may shed some light on this topic please -

I've been shooting helicopter aerials for a decade now, using my Panasonic Pro50, and have been more than happy with the results. One of my main reasons for buying a RED1, was to shoot stock - with aerials being high on the agenda.

Having recently received my 6' RED Drive cable, I was finally set to shoot some aerials. Unfortunately, the results so far are totally unsatisfactory. Though I've not seen too many aerials clips posted here, I'm sure that some guys must be shooting RED aerials every other day.

My main question at this point is - is rolling shutter contributing to the awful results I've captured so far? I've shot both nose-mount and hand-held, with results being not that different - lots of jello and jitter in both.

My initial test was using build 21 4.5K at RC42 without a single usable frame. I then went back to build 20 3K at RC28, which did seem to make a substantial difference to the over-all smoothness of the shots, but still not totally acceptable by any meaningful standard.

For what it's worth, I've included some links below in order to help some of you that can spare the time, make some informed judgement on the vision in question, as well as a link to another aerial shot using my same nose-mount set-up with the Panasonic Pro50.

http://www.vimeo.com/7230617
http://www.vimeo.com/7110400

Any input welcomed!!

best
joe
 
First, where the heck was that shot? freaking gorgeous landscape!.

While I saw SOME jello effect on a few shots once you got to higher altitude, it seemed more like a stabilization issue than rolling shutter to my inexperienced aerial photo viewing eyes.. Watching the frame edges, its seems to be shaking a bit all over. Was it turbulent or windy?
The panny shot was MUCH shorter, and the aricraft was moving straight ahead at what seemed to be a higher speed and much lower altitude. The 4.5K shot, the helicopter seems to be all over the place...or maybe it was the camera being hand held? Also the wider angle lens itself to exaggerate the issues it would seem

the gorgeous scenery makes it hard to call it unusable though... imho

what a fun job!
 
Tim Whitcomb said:
First, where the heck was that shot? freaking gorgeous landscape!.

While I saw SOME jello effect on a few shots once you got to higher altitude, it seemed more like a stabilization issue than rolling shutter to my inexperienced aerial photo viewing eyes.. Watching the frame edges, its seems to be shaking a bit all over. Was it turbulent or windy?
The panny shot was MUCH shorter, and the aricraft was moving straight ahead at what seemed to be a higher speed and much lower altitude. The 4.5K shot, the helicopter seems to be all over the place...or maybe it was the camera being hand held? Also the wider angle lens itself to exaggerate the issues it would seem

the gorgeous scenery makes it hard to call it unusable though... imho

what a fun job!
Click to expand...

Thanks for your reply Tim,
The gorgeous landscape is Australia's Island State - Tasmania and this is where I'm lucky enough to live and work (if you can call it work).

Chatted with Pawel about these issues last week and he too seemed to think it's a mount problem. What I can't get my head around, is why this problem doesn't show up when the Panasonic is on the same mount and turning out nice pix?

best
joe
 
I'd take a look at how the camera balances and how it catches the wind compared to the Panny. I agree it looks like a turbulence issue. The RED is probably considerably heavier, is the mount being overtaxed?
 
Isn't the Pro50 a CCD camera, if so, it's a global shutter, RED is CMOS, rolling shutter,

the CCD doesn't have any skew or jitter effects because it resets the sensor at once
 
Hi Joe,

Are both those clips shot on Red - on vimeo only the first one is identified as a red test - certainly there are problems with the first one, although the second looks a lot better. Looks like a vibration issue, was it hand held or on a mount, although it also looks as though the playback is stuttering over some frames - just doesn't quite look smooth.

I've recently shot some hand held aerials and found it impossible to use the drive - loads of drop frames from the vibrations. We had to shoot cards, which worked fine. Still it didn't seem very sharp and I'm planning more tests on shutter angle and framerate, to see what works best.

Does anyone else have experience to offer in this area.

Thanks,

Mark
 
What I found wrong with the Red clip was a whole lot of wobble and quite a bit of vibration getting to the camera. But that is mount and helicopter related.

I also see the vibration present on the second clip, though it seems the very short stretch you put there was far more stable than any one part of the clip you just shot with Red.

There is jello in the Red clip, but I don't think it will be a deal killer considering that it should be all but gone once you figure out a way to get vibration free shots. I am very interested in seeing what happens once you work out a different mounting solution.

What helicopter was this shot on? And what mount?
 
Definitely looks like a wobble with the mount. Could be a balance or weight issue or difference between the two cameras. What lens were you using on the RED? Perhaps the lens needs better support and it's not a camera mount issue?

The rolling shutter skew should not be an issue when shooting aerials. Faster shutter speeds will decrease the amount of motion blur and increase the amount of perceivable skew. However, at 1/96 it shouldn't be a problem. I'm not really seeing rolling shutter type skew in your video clips anyway, just the pulsing wobble and that seems to be completely mechanical.
 
One question...have you flown before with the pilot and in the helicopter that you used for the Red test?

The "jello" that others have referred to here , I believe is a combination of the roll and yaw that the aircraft is doing. The pilot seems to be using way too much pedal movement (the Yaw).

Also the periodic "wobble" or better, the up and down pulsing appears (to me) to be the helicopter's rotors are not tracking well (not in the same plane) thus the pulsing. The tracking varies a lot from ship to ship, and I have found that the companies that do a lot of aerial film work, pay attention to it and have them (the rotors) tracked (adjusted to rotate in the same plane) on a regular basis. I usually ask when was the last time it was done.

It is hard for a mount (other than a gimbal) to smooth out what the pilot and the helicopter seem to be doing to your footage.

Just thinking,

Larry
 
Joe Shemesh said:
Thanks for your reply Tim,
The gorgeous landscape is Australia's Island State - Tasmania and this is where I'm lucky enough to live and work (if you can call it work).

Chatted with Pawel about these issues last week and he too seemed to think it's a mount problem. What I can't get my head around, is why this problem doesn't show up when the Panasonic is on the same mount and turning out nice pix?

best
joe
Click to expand...

ahh, Tasmania, had no idea it was so lush. Cool!

I'd say try the panny with the same shot i.e. starting on lift off, going low then gaining altitude. . Or try the RED with the tree shot.

Again, the tree shot is MUCH closer to the subject (trees) so it appears smoother. But I bet if you had them side by side, the panny would have a similar result in the wide angle stuff you shot with RED (although it wont do 2.33 of course) but the shots are hard to compare because the framing and distance to subject matter is vastly different and most of the jello/wobble showed up once you got over 1000 feet it seems.
 
It definitely looks like a mount issue that you are experiencing. I've shot numerous times up in Alaska with the Red in Helicopters and I have not had those same issues. (Not yet anyway ...) I've shot both with a drive and with CF cards- CF cards seem to have less issues (none in fact) then the drive did. For the handheld stuff I did also use the Cinesaddle. I would try and get the camera as isolated as possible. Additionally, I would stay away from 4.5k and RC42. I have not tested this out with aerials yet, but there have been some complaints on the boards about there being more skew at those settings.

Here is a test clip that I did a year ago: (Shot handheld, Red with 18mm - 50mm, RC36 in 4k 16:9 at 29.97, 180 degrees, The AFTER footage was stabilized in post using iStabilize)
http://www.vimeo.com/2156680

Here is sample footage from one of my trips up there later in the year: (Shot with a portable Tyler Mount, Red 18mm - 50mm, RC36 in 4k HD at 23.98, 180 degrees, the footage still needed some post stabilization, and I used FCP to stabilize it. FCP did ok, but you can still see some image artifacts that are there due to FCP.)
http://www.vimeo.com/5330020

Here are some pictures showing the setup on my first trip up:
http://www.ryanewalters.com/page3/page11/files/page11-1034-full.html
http://www.ryanewalters.com/page3/page11/files/page11-1037-full.html
All the pix-
http://www.ryanewalters.com/page3/page11/page11.html
 
Another factor could be the higher mass, which causes more force on the mount than your Panasonic.

Also, any matte box or hood would cause vibrations from wind.

Do you have a picture of the setup?

BTW, the scene looks just like my new office next door. :emote_hippie: Very nice.
 
Thanks for pitching-in

Thanks for pitching-in

Hi again and thanks for all your responses!!! I'll try and answer as many of your questions as I can - but does seem the general consensus is that its predominantly a mount issue.

Mark -
The second clip was filmed with a Panasonic Pro50 and a J21xCanon lens.
Interestingly enough, I had heaps of dropped frames from my first use of 6'cable and Red Drive but on consecutive flights over the last week - no issues at all. At 180 degree shutter, much of the vision seemed blurry do to smear I guess. I then tried a 90 degree shutter and found this to be much better clarity-wise.
During my last test on Friday, I also experimented with 90 degree shutter at 3K and over-cranked to 50FPS. The results were much smoother ie not as much jitter and skew.

Roberto/Larry
I generally use a Squirrel AS350 which is a 3-bladed machine. The company I fly with are really great and are happy to track the blades for me before a shoot, giving me the best platform to work from.
The mount is my own design and build and have been using it for 5 years now. I'll post some images.

Jeff
I've been using a Canon 24mm and the Tokina 11-16mm - both of which are very compact lenses.

Ryan
I would have to concur with others here that using 4.5K at RC42 resulted in far worse pictures than 3K at RC28.
Really liked those images of yours, and you were instrumental in me buying a cine-saddle months back.

Pawel
Stripped down Red is actually slightly lighter than the Panasonic and 21x lens.
I've not had any external accessories fitted to the Red while on the mount.
By the way - what's the process for loading jps on here?

best
joe
 
a few more answers

a few more answers

David
Mount is built to take up to 15kg and stripped down Red is probably around the 7kg mark.

Zac
Yes you're absolutely right re sensors, but this is the point I'm trying to overcome - surely this does not mean the Red can't be used for fast action and/aerials

best
joe
 
Joe Shemesh said:
By the way - what's the process for loading jps on here?

best
joe
Click to expand...

Just click on "Go Advanced" below the reply box, then "Manage attachments" further below. I am very curious to see your custom mount. Maybe you can figure out a way to modify it and take it to the next level.

I would love to have a nose mount to shoot at ~14mm on the Tokina. Can you link me to any aerials shot on the Tokina at 11mm, hopefully from Red?
 
Maybe you should try a side mount or simply mount the camera on a cord from the roof of the cabin and operate with your hands.
Mounting the camera centrally in the chopper reduces bumps.

The chopper can fly sideways and, with good weather, it is not too bad. I used a Continental mount from a Jet Ranger and it was scarry as shit going 30 knots sideways three feet from the ground. :ohmy:

Over 80% of the footage looked good and I managed to sell it to Nat Geo as premium material.
 
Roberto Lequeux said:
Just click on "Go Advanced" below the reply box, then "Manage attachments" further below. I am very curious to see your custom mount. Maybe you can figure out a way to modify it and take it to the next level.

I would love to have a nose mount to shoot at ~14mm on the Tokina. Can you link me to any aerials shot on the Tokina at 11mm, hopefully from Red?
Click to expand...

Thanks Roberto,
I'm going flying tomorrow morning so will take some pix and post them soon after. Will also do a shot with the Tokina and post that as well.

Pawel
I will experiment with your suggestion. I've got a KS12 gyro unit that (underslung using bungy-cord) may provide a workable alternative.

best
joe
 
Cool! Thanks, can't wait to see the goodies.

Pawel Achtel said:
and it was scarry as shit going 30 knots sideways three feet from the ground. :ohmy:
Click to expand...

:emote_22_yikes: And THAT is why I want a nose mount. How much was the rental for that mount Pawel?

I want to do something very similar, but following a car close enough to see the people in the back seat before taking off to about 300-500ft (90-150m) to reveal several frozen lakes. Going sideways and following a car close enough to see the people in the back seat through the window, on a wide angle... yea, I am not feeling it. Not unless I can somehow also be the guy in control of the heli. Yikes! : )

Needless to say, scouting that road properly will be very important. But either way, you can't go very wide on a side mount before you get the blades or landing gear depending on how you are aiming the camera. Right?

So a nose mount might be prohibitively expensive to rent, I suppose, I haven't done that research yet. But if we can get one we'd be able to control the composition far more than with a side mount, and get a few more feet off the center of the blades so a little more headroom for the frame while flying low. It should definitely mean getting much more useful content with the same amount of heli+pilot time... right?

I am not about to go the DIY route. I'll leave that to the hardcore heli guys like Joe. : )
 
Hi guys,

shoot some aerial footage this year in British Columbia with a rather small chopper, using RED 18-50mm. Only thing we did to "stabilize" was getting rid of the chopper´s right back door and using the CineSaddle. Recorded in RC28 4KHD first on RedDrive with ET mount. Had a couple of dropped frames in higher altitudes due to heavier wind and the resulting shakes and changed to 16GB CF cards. All went well, no problems then. The footage was slightly stabilized in FCP using "smooth cam".

In my experience, doing a slight slomo can help getting better results. As far as I can remember, we were running 30fps instead of the usual 25fps we used throughout the shoot.

Frank
 
"I generally use a Squirrel AS350 which is a 3-bladed machine. The company I fly with are really great and are happy to track the blades for me before a shoot, giving me the best platform to work from.
The mount is my own design and build and have been using it for 5 years now. I'll post some images."


http://www.dssmicro.com/theory/dsrothst.htm

Rotor tracking is a complicated and time consuming process, and involves special equipment. It is not something the helicopter company simply does before each shoot. I was told that it takes at least a day to do it right...it ends up not being done a lot as it takes the aircraft out of service for that time.

I believe that the constant "bumping" that you see in the footage is due to this. (it has a definite frequency that from my experience is about what you would get from the blades being too out of "track"). See article above.

Also, the "yaw" in your footage looks to me like the pilot was crabbing the ship a bit to open up the side to your camera. That is hard to keep constant and it involves a lot of left petal (assuming you are shooting from the right side). This is from my own experience actually flying a helicopter, along with shooting out of them for about 25 years.

Larry
 
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