RED 4.5K and 35mm 4 perf Anamorphic Film out

[RivaiC]

I'm trying to figure out the best possible way of doing anamorphic format for film out.

We have 2 modes in RED
1. 4K ANA (2.44 after desqueeze ?)
2. 4.5K WS (2.35) 1:1 pixel aspect ratio

The final delivery is going to be on 4 perf film - anamorphic format which is 2x squeeze ratio

Here's the question. We still like the idea of shooting at 4.5K WS mode. But the most logical thing to do for final film out is to squeeze the picture to 4 perf full frame 35mm film. But the squeeze ratio is kind of different.

What i mean is 2K Film resolution is 2048 x 1556, assuming it is 2x horizontal desqueeze for theatrical projection it is going to be 4096 x 1556 (rough guess). If we shoot at 4.5K 4480 x 1920. I dont know how much i should squeeze for film out because the resolution is different.

So what do most people do if they shot on 4.5K mode and they want to output to 35mm ANA 2.35 ? What we dont want is to scale everything down to 2048 x 8xx, it really defeats the purpose of shooting at 2.35. Any suggestion ? It's a little tough to figure this thing out

Any input will greatly appreciated

Rivai

 

[David Mullen ASC]

If you want the most resolution, you'd shoot 4.5K 2.40, create a 4K 2.40 master and film that out to 35mm anamorphic, the laser recorder will do the conversion and squeeze, basically by doubling every horizontal line.

4K ANA is really 2.8K across, it's meant for using with anamorphic lenses on the camera and recording a 1.20 frame with a 2X optical squeeze.

 

[Patrick Tresch]

Depends on the post-production path. If you use color, you have 4k limitation. Don't forget that scope is 2.40 and that you have to frame with the underscan mode in your head. 35mm projection, depending on the projector, often eats a lot out of your framing.

We have shot 4k 2:1 framed for 2.40 and made a cinevartor output wich has excellent resolution even in 2k but avoiding the 2048x853 pixel format.

Below is how we made the ouput file for the Cinevator. I would have choosen the 96% to have a "perfect" framing in a 2048x1744 container.

Pat

 

[RivaiC]

hi David

Interesting, we will be using Arri Laser 2K for this job. I believe it can do the squeezing in their system but i dont think they can take 4K Master.

By 4K Master, do you mean 4096 horizontal pixel ? that will means 4480 scale down to 4096. And by 2K Master, i assume we have to scale down to 2048 horizontal pixel

Please correct me if im wrong

Regards

 

[RivaiC]

Hi Patrick, we will be using Davinci for this work.

Thanks for the guide. Once question, the vertical line is a bit odd. 1744, but you did take this into account for the cropping in theatrical projection ? If this is what i understand from you. Im trying to figure out the fact that 1556 is the vertical resolution of 2K film and how to fit it in.

 

[Patrick Tresch]

Hi Patrick, we will be using Davinci for this work.

Thanks for the guide. Once question, the vertical line is a bit odd. 1744, but you did take this into account for the cropping in theatrical projection ? If this is what i understand from you. Im trying to figure out the fact that 1556 is the vertical resolution of 2K film and how to fit it in.

Davinci is a great app.

2048x1744 is one of the Cinevator recording format.

Not sure if at the end we used this one or 1828x1556. The results where good...

Pat

 

[RivaiC]

Cool ! at least i know it's possible to shoot 4.5K and output full 4 perf 35mm ANA mode

Thanks
Rivai

 

[Evangelos Achillopoulos]

Since I have done lots of anamorphic Filmout's the last year let me tell you how I do it to get the max.

First of all since we don't distribute many copies on film anymore, I tent to use Camera Negative stock to film out.

One reason is that, its much better to get the Camera Negative 5201 50D character and mild natural grain on digital images instead of internegative which is very flat and grain less. Second I don't use for digital recorded images ARRI and I prefer the CRT Lasergraphics to get the frame exposure and the phosphor natural slight flare effect, like it happens when you exposing real film to real images. Lastly and most crucially because as Academy of Motion Pictures has pointed with the Digital Dilemma study, a digital only movie on digital mediums will last for no more than 30 years on data media in a "store and ignore" state. That means the Filmout has to be considered as a long term safe-house of your work of art capable to pass the mark of 100 years in a "store and ignore" state. That means we have to Filmout movies having in the back of our minds the future 4K use of it. So we have to Filmout in 4k. If in 50 years someone scan your movie from negative it will be good to have the average resolution of that time on negative...

So back to the subject, for all 2.4 CinemaScope I ask my partners to render them in 4K cropped to 2.4:1 4096x1706, then on the 4K film recorder I stretch x2 vertically the image and I print it... In this way I get the maximum resolution on film recorder. Thats not exactly doubling of the lines, it includes also natural anti-aliasing from phosphor of the CRT Film recorder...

If I have to print in 2K on my ARRI, then again we render everything in 4K 2,4:1 4096x1706 and with the help of good old Combustion I use Lanzhos scale to create 2:1 2k Anamorphic images from 4k originals, and I don't allow my ARRI to do it, because in this way I get full 1556 lines of real resolution on film...

My ARRI is the best for films that had being shot on film... then I use the flat internegative and the digital laser scanning of ARRI film recorder... since film has already grain and flare... Every machine for what is best...

For more info on http://www.motionfx.gr/film-recorders.html

"Martha" and "Voodoo" are done like that http://www.motionfx.gr/client-work.html

"Voodoo" has being shoot also with anamorphic lenses... so it was even better...

 

[RivaiC]

Hi Evangelos, quick question, why do you convert 2K Image to 2:1 instead of maintaining the original aspect ratio 2.4 ? Any specific reason for that ?

Regards
Rivai

 

[Evangelos Achillopoulos]

Hi Evangelos, quick question, why do you convert 2K Image to 2:1 instead of maintaining the original aspect ratio 2.4 ? Any specific reason for that?

My ARRILaser is 2K 2048x1556 (Cinema-Scope 4perf anamorphic 2:1), so to transfer the 4K images (with 1:1 aspect) I have to feed ARRI with 2K images, that's why I convert them to 2K AND on the same time to Anamorphic 2:1 in order to get the maximum from the 4K originals.

 

[RivaiC]

Thanks all, works like charm

Regards
Rivai