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RED 17-50mm on film camera -- not focusing!

S

Steve Zimmerman

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I just got a new Red Pro Zoom PL mount 17-50mm shipped to me. The PL mount slides in all the way, the tabs touch the steel of the camera mount, but it cannot be locked on, the tabs seem slightly too thick. We measured and they are just slightly thicker than a PL lens we have that fits. The mirror clears the lens back just fine.

More importantly-- the focus is WAY off. When zoomed in to 50mm, and I focus on a point 8 ft away, the witness marks show between 20 and 50 ft! Zoomed out it loses focus. Obviously the back focus is off. I heard these lenses were used on Arricams, and PL mount is PL mount, right?

I am using a PL mount Konvas 1M. I have used Arri Super speed lenses on this just fine. The camera mount has been Flange focal Depth checked very recently. I've seen videos of this lens on lots of different digital cameras all focusing well, so why would it focus badly on mine, if all PL specs are the same?

Do I need to modify the lens? Kubrick got that NASA lens to work right? I don't have that much money...
sad.gif
Its sad a beautiful affordable lens does not work. I will try it on an ARRI BL3 at the local film school tomorrow.

I sold my old fuzzy lenses and pooled all our money into this one lens! We are very upset. If anyone has ideas how we can get this fixed, let us know. Thanks Steve
 
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How accurate is the mount on the camera? And do you know for sure? The new lens from RED should be properly adjusted, but maybe something happened to it during shipping. I would put it on a collimating bench or at least test with another camera or two and see what you get.

You also say there are issues with the PL mount "tabs". It's possible that the older Konvas mount may not like some of these newer lenses with beefier mounts on them. The tabs or ears on the 17-50 mount are indeed thick compared to some older lenses, but not atypical of newer designs. If it doesn't fit properly in the mount, that could make the lens off just enough to affect your flange depth and make it impossible to properly focus and track focus.
 
The camera was remounted for Super 35 last month, and as part of that the FFD was checked. A Kinoptic 9.8mm focuses perfectly on it.

This lens doesn't focus at all. PL mount "ears" are too big to fit on a PL ring

Guess I have to send it back, have somebody do something to it, and hope it gets adjusted.
A trouble ticket right out of the gate :-(.
 
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Steve Zimmerman said:
At this point, not a RED fan, sadly.

The camera was remounted for Super 35 last month, and as part of that the FFD was checked. A Kinoptic 9.8mm focuses perfectly on it.

This lens doesn't focus at all. PL mount "ears" are too big to fit on a PL ring made by anyone but Red. Does the marketing material
tell you this - NO!

Spent hours with a few sales kids who have never touched a lens - who were polite but deflected my concerns. The
"engineers project the lenses and test them to make sure they're right" was
as far as I could get. I was told this before I ordered the lens as well. I was assured someone would call me back - an engineer
I was told. They didn't.

Why did I spend $6000 for a brand new lens that was clearly
never tested before it ended up at my house? That's the question. Now I have
to send it back, have some goons do something to it, and hope it gets adjusted.
Confidence in Red = Zero. A trouble ticket right out of the gate. Great work.

Please fix my problem!!
Click to expand...

So is it for sale? That seems like your best bet. Dump it and move on to something you like. Should be an easy sale if you'll take a small hit.
 
Sounds like something might have gotten a little out of whack in shipping. Were are you located maybe someone could help you out with a test?
 
I have used this lens ,apart from on my reds, on a sony f3 with pl mount and a sony fs100 with a pl adapter with zero problems. Who made your Konvas pl mount? Can you unscrew the stop on the pl locking collar and loosen it more to allow you to mount the lens?
 
It is a stainless steel mount from Slow Motion in LA. Maybe the collar can be loosened, but still the back focus is WAY WAY off. Crazy for a Brand New Lens!
 
Steve Zimmerman said:
Why did I spend $6000 for a brand new lens that was clearly
never tested before it ended up at my house? That's the question. Now I have
to send it back, have some goons do something to it, and hope it gets adjusted.
Confidence in Red = Zero. A trouble ticket right out of the gate. Great work.
Click to expand...

Steve, every lens goes through a lengthy OQC process before it ships. If it does not pass, it does not ship. If something happened during shipping, then we need it back to eval and we will take care of it.

And, really, I take offense to you calling my co-workers "goons". An insult right out of the gate, great work.

BC
 
Somehow I missed the "goons" part. If you want to garner support in the future honey works better than vinegar. I have used the lens you purchased many, many times and I can assure you that you will love it.
 
Hi Steven,

The world of cinema lenses, cameras, and mounts exists in rarified air. While it might seem logical to assume that PL mount is PL mount, period, it just doesn't necessarily work that way. As a rule of thumb for future reference, it's almost imperative to put new lenses on an optical bench well in advance of shooting with them. My 17-50 RPZ is extraordinary. I would encourage you to take yours to a lens specialist along with your camera. Maybe it's a simple matter of an adjustment. Hope it works out for you.

I concur with Peter. Maligning Red and calling their employees goons is probably not productive.

Tim Eaton
 
Take a look at the lens mount and the PL mount on the lens, Ive seen on some lenses that theres a small 'fillet' on the Lens PL between the male barrel and inner flange. The camera female mount should have a small amount of material taken of corner of the female lens throat and the outer flange. What you might see is the lens not going in to the PL mount as its being stopped by some material on the lens mount it self.

Ive seen this recently on a number of lenses here non Red I have to say. We fixed this by machining the film camera PL mount (wasnt a Red or Epic !) a little to accomodate any lenses PL mounts that had an excess 'fillet' on the mount. Im not sure if its poor machining on some mounts or what but its crops up quite often.

The result is as you say the lens not fitting in the mount and focus being off as the lens wont go in to the mount fully.

Im not implying the lens is wrong or badly machined or the camera mount, Im just suggesting they two might need close check to make sure they are mutualy compatible.
 
Sorry about the name calling :-), that second post was me "cut and paste" quoting my filmmaking partner. His account was not working, and he was a wreck from the frustration we have been going through.

I have deleted the comment.

We talked to Paul Duclos about this and he said "PL is PL, it should just work". I guess our lens needs more work, unfortunately. :-(

Thank you for the informative comments trying to explain what may be happening. We should be returning the lens to be looked at tomorrow.

Steve
 
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used the rpz on an epic, mx and alexa. i love this lens for run and gun. i pull focus by eye though (pretty good till the 50 hehe)
 
That's great to hear! Hope we have the same success with it. What's the problem at 50mm?
:drool:
 
put the lens on another camera, a film camera or red or f3 or whatever. If you have the same backfocus issues, then it's the lens. If not, it's your mount.
"Pl is Pl" but I've seen variations on eastern european versions of pl mounts (on lenses). Don't rule out your camera just yet.
 
Can also say I've used the RPZ 17-50 on an ARRI 435 and Alexa, in addition to RED One and EPIC. Didn't actually shoot it on the 435, but had the lens mounted on this camera during a prep session and peered through the viewfinder.

Paul Duclos is pretty much the expert and he is correct in saying that "PL is PL". But there are still times when we subtle differences or changes. There are occasionally compatibility issues and it seems like there have been a lot of those, industry-wide, over the past couple years with all the new equipment popping up. Many of these issues appear as clashes between older hardware and new. It wasn't uncommon for hardware from Eastern Block sources or even right here in the USA to cut themselves short on certain specs or standards interpretations -- just because it worked fine at the time. Just ask Matt or Paul about how they've had to recall many of their own modded 11-16 zooms because of a small issue that made them impossible to mount on the EPIC or F65. Fix took like a minute -- I think it had to do with the registration pin slot. Both the EPIC PL mount as well as the one for the F65 are both within spec. It happens.

Chances are, if that Konvas mount is tight on the 17-50 mount flange, it's going to be tight on other contemporary lenses too. Like the CP.2's, RPP's, even Master Primes. The tabs/ears on the 17-50 may seem big compared to some older lenses, especially smaller primes like the Zeiss standards or speeds, but they are within spec.

As others pointed out, don't rule out the collimation of your camera and other lenses. Especially if they were all serviced/set/collimated by the same technician! I've run across instances where renting a camera and lenses and they all work perfectly, then I go to put on one of my lenses only to find the camera mount is not set at the appropriate FFD and the rental house is rounding off or using non-standard FFD on their mounts and collimating their lenses to compensate. Could be error, but more often than not it's a way to keep people from using their equipment with lenses/cameras obtained elsewhere. Yes, this actually happens. Especially in markets that are off the beaten path where choices are minimal and competition is fierce. That's another story though.

I would definitely test the lens on another camera or two. And sadly, it may need to return for service... It happens. Like the time (in 2009) that I rented a set of 5 Master Primes and had them shipped to my location... Two of the 5 lenses arrived in need of collimation. Most likely they were jostled too hard during shipping.
 
Thanks for the informative reply Jeff! I will try it on another camera today.
 
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